U.S. and Allies Strike Libya

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I appreciated that Daily Beast article because of the optimism displayed in the quote you placed in bold, yolland.

I take it for granted as well that the future of the Middle East is one that will not see delusional autocrats like Ghadaffi in power. Sure, it's good to be skeptical of the motives of the US and its NATO allies, but I am 100% convinced that the alternative - not intervening in that affair - would have had terrible consequences even without a horrible massacre in Benghazi. I don't even want to imagine the results of Ghadaffi victory in this war. It would basically be delaying the inevitable, prolonging the suffering. What do people think would have happened if the rebels failed? Everyone just goes back to business as usual? Give me a break.

No
I stand behind my support of NATO in this conflict, and I look forward to it's conclusion.
 
^ There isn't any truly solid data on that at this point, due to the lack of reliable sources inside Libya. Most estimates from major human rights NGOs I've seen (AI, HRW, IFHR etc.) put civilian deaths in the mid-to-high hundreds, with most of them occurring in late February.

Really? Well that's not too bad. I thought it was in the thousands; the media was real excited to throw about the claim that there were 10,000 dead.

No
I stand behind my support of NATO in this conflict, and I look forward to it's conclusion.

I support them as well, but NATO needs to step up it's game if it wants to win. Right now they're dithering. :down:
 
Remember that was only the civilian count I was citing. Almost all sources agree that several thousand have died by this point when combatant deaths (overwhelmingly on the rebels' side) are included. I think that 10,000 figure came from the rebels' council itself (NTC), whose figures have consistently run far higher than the highest Western estimates. Missing persons estimates also run into the thousands. It is possible that if/when the dust settles, civilian death tolls will ultimately be determined to have run into the thousands, but from what I understand there isn't presently evidence for that. Again, an extremely difficult situation in which to obtain reliable counts.
 
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The HRW report from here is concerning:

Link
EVIDENCE IS now in that President Barack Obama grossly exaggerated the humanitarian threat to justify military action in Libya. The president claimed that intervention was necessary to prevent a “bloodbath’’ in Benghazi, Libya’s second-largest city and last rebel stronghold.

But Human Rights Watch has released data on Misurata, the next-biggest city in Libya and scene of protracted fighting, revealing that Moammar Khadafy is not deliberately massacring civilians but rather narrowly targeting the armed rebels who fight against his government.

Misurata’s population is roughly 400,000. In nearly two months of war, only 257 people — including combatants — have died there. Of the 949 wounded, only 22 — less than 3 percent — are women. If Khadafy were indiscriminately targeting civilians, women would comprise about half the casualties.


Obama insisted that prospects were grim without intervention. “If we waited one more day, Benghazi . . . could suffer a massacre that would have reverberated across the region and stained the conscience of the world.’’ Thus, the president concluded, “preventing genocide’’ justified US military action.

But intervention did not prevent genocide, because no such bloodbath was in the offing. To the contrary, by emboldening rebellion, US interference has prolonged Libya’s civil war and the resultant suffering of innocents.

The best evidence that Khadafy did not plan genocide in Benghazi is that he did not perpetrate it in the other cities he had recaptured either fully or partially — including Zawiya, Misurata, and Ajdabiya, which together have a population greater than Benghazi.

Libyan forces did kill hundreds as they regained control of cities. Collateral damage is inevitable in counter-insurgency. And strict laws of war may have been exceeded.

But Khadafy’s acts were a far cry from Rwanda, Darfur, Congo, Bosnia, and other killing fields. Libya’s air force, prior to imposition of a UN-authorized no-fly zone, targeted rebel positions, not civilian concentrations. Despite ubiquitous cellphones equipped with cameras and video, there is no graphic evidence of deliberate massacre. Images abound of victims killed or wounded in crossfire — each one a tragedy — but that is urban warfare, not genocide.

Nor did Khadafy ever threaten civilian massacre in Benghazi, as Obama alleged. The “no mercy’’ warning, of March 17, targeted rebels only, as reported by The New York Times, which noted that Libya’s leader promised amnesty for those “who throw their weapons away.’’ Khadafy even offered the rebels an escape route and open border to Egypt, to avoid a fight “to the bitter end.’’

If bloodbath was unlikely, how did this notion propel US intervention? The actual prospect in Benghazi was the final defeat of the rebels. To avoid this fate, they desperately concocted an impending genocide to rally international support for “humanitarian’’ intervention that would save their rebellion.

On March 15, Reuters quoted a Libyan opposition leader in Geneva claiming that if Khadafy attacked Benghazi, there would be “a real bloodbath, a massacre like we saw in Rwanda.’’ Four days later, US military aircraft started bombing. By the time Obama claimed that intervention had prevented a bloodbath, The New York Times already had reported that “the rebels feel no loyalty to the truth in shaping their propaganda’’ against Khadafy and were “making vastly inflated claims of his barbaric behavior.’’

It is hard to know whether the White House was duped by the rebels or conspired with them to pursue regime-change on bogus humanitarian grounds. In either case, intervention quickly exceeded the UN mandate of civilian protection by bombing Libyan forces in retreat or based in bastions of Khadafy support, such as Sirte, where they threatened no civilians.

The net result is uncertain. Intervention stopped Khadafy’s forces from capturing Benghazi, saving some lives. But it intensified his crackdown in western Libya to consolidate territory quickly. It also emboldened the rebels to resume their attacks, briefly recapturing cities along the eastern and central coast, such as Ajdabiya, Brega, and Ras Lanuf, until they outran supply lines and retreated.

Each time those cities change hands, they are shelled by both sides
— killing, wounding, and displacing innocents. On March 31, NATO formally warned the rebels to stop attacking civilians. It is poignant to recall that if not for intervention, the war almost surely would have ended last month.

In his speech explaining the military action in Libya, Obama embraced the noble principle of the responsibility to protect — which some quickly dubbed the Obama Doctrine — calling for intervention when possible to prevent genocide. Libya reveals how this approach, implemented reflexively, may backfire by encouraging rebels to provoke and exaggerate atrocities, to entice intervention that ultimately perpetuates civil war and humanitarian suffering.

It would basically be delaying the inevitable, prolonging the suffering.
Yes, good thing we didn't choose the option with the risk of a long, protracted, drawn-out struggle.
 
To be fair, it looks like at this point in the war Qaddafi might be opening up his arsenal:

MISURATA, Libya — Military forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi have been firing into residential neighborhoods in this embattled city with heavy weapons, including cluster bombs that have been banned by much of the world and ground-to-ground rockets, according to witnesses and survivors, as well as physical evidence.

Both of these so-called “indiscriminate” weapons, which strike large areas with a dense succession of high-explosive munitions, by their nature cannot be fired precisely. When fired into populated areas they place civilians at grave risk.

The dangers were evident beside one of the impact craters on Friday, where eight people had been killed while standing in a bread line. Where a crowd had assembled for food, bits of human flesh had been blasted against a cinder block wall.

The use of such weapons in these ways could add urgency to the arguments by Britain and France that the alliance needs to step up attacks on the Qaddafi forces, to better fulfill the United Nations mandate to protect civilians.

There's always a catch:

Human Rights Watch, the New York based advocacy group, verified the use of the cluster munitions as well, and called on the Qaddafi government to stop using them.

“It’s unconscionable that Libya is using these indiscriminate weapons, especially in civilian populated areas,” said Steve Goose, director of the organization’s arms division. “Cluster munitions are inaccurate and unreliable weapons that pose unacceptable dangers to civilians.”


....

Components from the 120-millimeter rounds, according to their markings, were manufactured in Spain in 2007 — one year before Spain signed the international Convention on Cluster Munitions and pledged to destroy its stocks. Libya, like the United States, is not a signatory to the convention. The Spanish Defense Ministry had no immediate comment.

American exceptionalism, I guess.
 
Tim Hetherington And Chris Hondros, Photojournalists, Reported Killed In Libya

Tim Hetherington, an Oscar-nominated filmmaker and photographer, and Chris Hondros, a Pulitzer Prize-nominated photojournalist, were reported to have been killed in the city of Misrata while covering fighting between Muammar Gaddafi's forces and Libyan rebels. Andre Liohn, a fellow photographer who was injured during the same battle, wrote on Facebook on Wednesday that the two had died "when covering the front line." Liohn initially said that Hetherington had died, but soon wrote on his wall, "Chris Hondros died now."

Hetherington was a contributing photographer for Vanity Fair, and co-directed the Afghan war film "Restrepo" with author Sebastian Junger. Hondros' war photography has appeared in countless publications, and he was nominated for a Pulitzer in 2004.

Sad.
 
This is ridiculous. We have the kind of air support needed to break Gaddahfi (AC130's), yet Obama is refusing to do anything outside of a "support role." What the hell does that even mean? There's not going to be anything to support at this rate. :| Jesus, if you won't let us use our fucking gunships ourselves, then give them to Britain or France to use. If you don't want American military action, then you shouldn't have gotten us involved in the first place. :doh:

Clearly he is doing this so he still has a chance of being reelected.

But when Gaddahfi sweeps in and finally crushs the opposition, it's going to be Obama's fault for letting it happen. :down:
 
But when Gaddahfi sweeps in and finally crushs the opposition, it's going to be Obama's fault for letting it happen. :down:

I don't understand why you're so hellbent on getting involved in another misadventure in the Middle East. Do you understand Libya? Do you have any idea who the rebels are? Do you know what you want for your end goal? One country under whose leadership? A splintered two-state nation? Two independent states? Three or four? UN peacekeepers on the ground for a decade? US $ flowing there for the foreseeable future? Their oil? What?
 
Some telling results from a new ABC News/Washington Post telephone poll of 1001 randomly selected American adults:
40% of Americans oppose US military participation; in this group just 27% approve of Obama’s handling of the situation, while 65% disapprove. An additional 32% support US involvement, but say the aim should be to remove Gaddafi from power, not only to protect civilians; Obama gets a higher approval rating for handling Libya in this group, but hardly a robust one–-49%. The third and smallest group, 22%, supports current policy-–military involvement limited to protecting civilians. In this group Obama’s approval rating for handling the situation grows to 61%.
Support for allied air strikes on Libya–-whatever their aim-–do not translate into support for an increased US role in those strikes. Even among [the 32%] who favor ousting Gaddafi as a goal, a relatively small group, 24%, say the level of US military involvement in Libya should be increased. Support for an increased US role is lower still, 9%, among those who favor the current mission, protecting civilians. In both groups, sizable majorities say US involvement should be kept about the same as it is now.
 
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i'm sure i'm not the only one unbelievably uncomfortable with targeted strikes against gaddaffi's family home? it's state sanctioned assassination.

You're certainly not, but would you still be uncomfortable if Gaddaffi was killed in the airstrike?

It's very regrettable his three of his grandchildren were killed in the attack, and a little less regrettable his son was killed as well.

But Gaddafi knows he's a target, so I blame him for putting his family in danger. I don't blame NATO for bombing his home. From what I read they had information that he was there (accurate information). I do blame NATO for not putting more missiles in the building to ensure Gaddafi was killed.
 
You're certainly not, but would you still be uncomfortable if Gaddaffi was killed in the airstrike?

It's very regrettable his three of his grandchildren were killed in the attack, and a little less regrettable his son was killed as well.

But Gaddafi knows he's a target, so I blame him for putting his family in danger. I don't blame NATO for bombing his home. From what I read they had information that he was there (accurate information). I do blame NATO for not putting more missiles in the building to ensure Gaddafi was killed.

This almost certainly will get uglier before it gets better. How many misses on Gadhafi can NATO afford before there is a notable civilian death toll on NATO's hands.

Ultimately, I'm still for this action by NATO and the U.N., but it won't surprise me if Gadhafi decides to make it even more messy since he (and his family) is a target now.

Burning oil fields?
 
MSNBC, May 9
An overcrowded ship carrying up to 600 people trying to flee Libya sank just outside the port of Tripoli, the UN refugee agency said Monday, citing witness accounts. ...Witnesses who left the Libyan capital on another boat shortly afterward reported seeing remnants of the sunken ship and the bodies of some passengers floating in the sea, she told The Associated Press.

...At least three other boats that left Libya in late March have disappeared, with hundreds feared dead, [the UN spokeswoman] said. The number of people fleeing North Africa has soared since mid-January, after Tunisia overthrew its longtime dictator and set off a series of uprisings in Egypt and Libya. Some 25,000 people, mostly Tunisians, have flooded Lampedusa, which is right off the North African coast. Since fighting began in Libya in mid-February, the IOM estimates that another 10,000 people have reached Lampedusa or the neighboring island of Linosa from Libya—including almost 2000 who arrived on five boats last weekend. Many of those fleeing Libya are foreign workers from sub-Saharan Africa, who in the first weeks of the war were mistaken for mercenaries funded by Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi and attacked by Libyan rebels.

...Boldrini said the deaths and disappearances among people trying to cross the Mediterranean to flee unrest and repressive regimes in Africa is increasing as smugglers begin to use bigger and less seaworthy boats. "Most of the boats, if not all of the boats, are unseaworthy," said IOM spokeswoman Jemini Pandya. "In addition, the boats are way overladen." ...Aid officials said it was impossible to know how many people have drowned this year while trying to reach Europe. "There's been no way of charting for sure how many boats have left, how many people never made it. Some of them we will never know about," said Pandya.
:(
 
i'm sure i'm not the only one unbelievably uncomfortable with targeted strikes against gaddaffi's family home? it's state sanctioned assassination.

I would like to add the quote below to the above quote. It pertains to the belief that one nation can kill another at will.

“Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned, everywhere is war....
And until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race, there is war"

Haile Selassie, 1963 speech

Speaking of state sanctioned assasinations, didn't Obama use the word "circumstantial" during his 60 minutes interview on Sunday night?
 
I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.
 
I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.

No doubt he was public enemy number 1 in the '80s. I still remember the pain of the news coverage of the Lockerbie bombing.

It's amazing how this has gone under the radar all summer. I can only imagine the help the rebels have had to get to Tripoli. (Ahem... CIA, Special Forces... Ahem.)
 
I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.

Indeed.
 
I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.

Well, I remember the 80s first hand, and to me, we've seen this movie before.

It'll all end in tears.
 

Oh it'll "end" soon; I'm guessing Gadhafi will either be captured or dead within the next hours or days, and then it'll be over.

I've never understood the blatant anti-Western attitudes of the New Left. I mean, it's become so farcical that they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway. After all, if he'd left when the writing was on the wall in the Arab Spring like Ben Ali and Mubarak, then NATO wouldn't have needed to be involved anyway. But I'm guessing these are the same folks who forget that the American Revolution wasn't won single-handedly by the colonists either; if it wasn't for involvement from France, history might have been quite different.
 
they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway

If nobody in Libya wanted Gadhafi there, why was he there? Even Saddam had a tribal base. This sort of binary analysis obscures far more than it illuminates. To the West's credit, the Libyan rebels cleared one of two major obstacles, but it still remains to be seen whether they can establish a reasonably representative government. If all that results from this is a new military junta who just have a Western-friendly disposition, then it's hardly worth a victory lap just yet.
 
I've never understood the blatant anti-Western attitudes of the New Left. I mean, it's become so farcical that they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway.

As far as I know and as I have seen, this sort of opinion is only held by a small minority of the left. There's nothing to defend in Gadhafi's actions, absolutely nothing.

If nobody in Libya wanted Gadhafi there, why was he there? Even Saddam had a tribal base. This sort of binary analysis obscures far more than it illuminates. To the West's credit, the Libyan rebels cleared one of two major obstacles, but it still remains to be seen whether they can establish a reasonably representative government. If all that results from this is a new military junta who just have a Western-friendly disposition, then it's hardly worth a victory lap just yet.

Unfortunately this is just about what I see happening. Replacing an authoritarian regime with another authoritarian regime.
 
If nobody in Libya wanted Gadhafi there, why was he there?

Unlike a lot of other Arab dictatorships, which were based primarily on tribal allegiances and other forms of bribery, Gadhafi's was largely based on eliminating any and all forms of opposition, including any kinds of governmental organizations that could challenge him. Mubarak's exit showed that he was ultimately just a ripple in the nation's power base. Libya is a lot more worrisome in that respect, as the rebels will basically have to start from scratch in establishing a government there; Gadhafi ensured that he was Libya and that Libya was entirely dependent on him.
 
I've never understood the blatant anti-Western attitudes of the New Left. I mean, it's become so farcical that they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway.

I honestly don't know whom you are referring to and your statement above sounds a little out there.

There are plenty of people (on the left and the right) who expressed a genuine feeling that we (Americans, the West):

a) don't understand the Middle East, Libya included; and
b) have amply and repeatedly demonstrated (a) above.

As such, frankly, I am hesitant to lend support to any interventions in that part of the world, because I think that history has shown us that when we do so, we by and large fuck things up.
 
I honestly don't know whom you are referring to and your statement above sounds a little out there.

I'm referring to nobody specifically, but more to do with the tenor of "editorials" from people like Kucinich who seem to see every American foreign policy initiative as a rehash of Vietnam. No, the U.S. is not perfect, but the over-emphasis of "Western atrocities," whilst overlooking or even championing those we're fighting against (Sean Penn's embrace of Chavez and Ahmadinejad comes to mind) is quickly becoming a farce. Gadhafi is a murderous terrorist-sponsoring dictator of the worst kind; he is indefensible, even on NATO's worst days. No conflict is bloodless, and no surgical strike is perfect. This isn't the carpet bombing of Germany during the final days of WWII; there is a concerted and genuine effort in Western warfare that wishes to avoid civilian casualties, but regardless of that fact, had Gadhafi left when the writing was clearly on the wall during the Arab Spring, NATO would never have gotten involved. None of this is perfect, but the alternative of letting Gadhafi win victoriously over the rebels...is that an option that everyone was ready to live with? It's certainly easy to come to that conclusion living from the comforts of an advanced Western democracy, but is one that I believe to be morally indefensible if we are to believe that all people have the right to determine their own governance.

There are plenty of people (on the left and the right) who expressed a genuine feeling that we (Americans, the West):

a) don't understand the Middle East, Libya included; and
b) have amply and repeatedly demonstrated (a) above.

As such, frankly, I am hesitant to lend support to any interventions in that part of the world, because I think that history has shown us that when we do so, we by and large fuck things up.

When I read these kinds of arguments, I generally see the spectre of Iraq, yes? One particular historical moment I end up recalling, however, is how the U.S./West screwed up the aftermath of Gulf War I, where we basically left the Kurds and Shia populations sitting ducks for Saddam's revenge, since we left him in power.

1991 uprisings in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Non-intervention, in this case, made both groups highly distrust the U.S., and it was the spectre of this that made Gulf War II a difficult proposition to wage, as neither was certain as to whether history would repeat itself and the U.S. would leave them high and dry again.

I think one thing that may help the West in regards to the Middle East is being on the right side of history. By not being seen as the purse strings that prop up oppressive dictatorships, groups like Al-Qaeda have less room for argument. If Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya are able to form stable democratic governments--and I don't think anybody believes this to be quick or easy--it may prove to be quite beneficial for defusing terrorism threats to the West. Not only that, but at the end of the day, seeing fellow human beings now able to manage their own happiness and destiny is a very large step toward progress irrespective of any callous interest for the West.

None of this is perfect, but I don't believe that isolationism is the answer.
 
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