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Old 05-09-2011, 04:34 PM   #166
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MSNBC, May 9
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An overcrowded ship carrying up to 600 people trying to flee Libya sank just outside the port of Tripoli, the UN refugee agency said Monday, citing witness accounts. ...Witnesses who left the Libyan capital on another boat shortly afterward reported seeing remnants of the sunken ship and the bodies of some passengers floating in the sea, she told The Associated Press.

...At least three other boats that left Libya in late March have disappeared, with hundreds feared dead, [the UN spokeswoman] said. The number of people fleeing North Africa has soared since mid-January, after Tunisia overthrew its longtime dictator and set off a series of uprisings in Egypt and Libya. Some 25,000 people, mostly Tunisians, have flooded Lampedusa, which is right off the North African coast. Since fighting began in Libya in mid-February, the IOM estimates that another 10,000 people have reached Lampedusa or the neighboring island of Linosa from Libya—including almost 2000 who arrived on five boats last weekend. Many of those fleeing Libya are foreign workers from sub-Saharan Africa, who in the first weeks of the war were mistaken for mercenaries funded by Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi and attacked by Libyan rebels.

...Boldrini said the deaths and disappearances among people trying to cross the Mediterranean to flee unrest and repressive regimes in Africa is increasing as smugglers begin to use bigger and less seaworthy boats. "Most of the boats, if not all of the boats, are unseaworthy," said IOM spokeswoman Jemini Pandya. "In addition, the boats are way overladen." ...Aid officials said it was impossible to know how many people have drowned this year while trying to reach Europe. "There's been no way of charting for sure how many boats have left, how many people never made it. Some of them we will never know about," said Pandya.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:35 PM   #167
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:59 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I don't understand why you're so hellbent on getting involved in another misadventure in the Middle East. Do you understand Libya? Their oil? What?
Amen, Lord thanks for listening.
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Old 05-09-2011, 05:07 PM   #169
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i'm sure i'm not the only one unbelievably uncomfortable with targeted strikes against gaddaffi's family home? it's state sanctioned assassination.
I would like to add the quote below to the above quote. It pertains to the belief that one nation can kill another at will.

“Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned, everywhere is war....
And until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race, there is war"

Haile Selassie, 1963 speech

Speaking of state sanctioned assasinations, didn't Obama use the word "circumstantial" during his 60 minutes interview on Sunday night?
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Old 08-21-2011, 03:49 PM   #170
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I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:06 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.
No doubt he was public enemy number 1 in the '80s. I still remember the pain of the news coverage of the Lockerbie bombing.

It's amazing how this has gone under the radar all summer. I can only imagine the help the rebels have had to get to Tripoli. (Ahem... CIA, Special Forces... Ahem.)
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Old 08-21-2011, 04:51 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.
Indeed.
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:38 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
I could not believe all the nay-sayers in this thread.

This should go down as a big win for Obama.

I know many of you do not remember the 80s first hand.

Gadhafi was and should be considered as big of a terrorist as BinLaden.

He was a much bigger terrorist than Saddam Hussien ever was.

I remember the GOP and many in the main-stream establishment condemning Clinton for getting NATO involved in the Bosnian War in the 1990s. Clinton was right then and Obama is right in Libya.
Well, I remember the 80s first hand, and to me, we've seen this movie before.

It'll all end in tears.
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Old 08-21-2011, 08:30 PM   #174
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Time to end Nato's war in Libya | Dennis Kucinich | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:49 PM   #175
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Oh it'll "end" soon; I'm guessing Gadhafi will either be captured or dead within the next hours or days, and then it'll be over.

I've never understood the blatant anti-Western attitudes of the New Left. I mean, it's become so farcical that they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway. After all, if he'd left when the writing was on the wall in the Arab Spring like Ben Ali and Mubarak, then NATO wouldn't have needed to be involved anyway. But I'm guessing these are the same folks who forget that the American Revolution wasn't won single-handedly by the colonists either; if it wasn't for involvement from France, history might have been quite different.
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:49 PM   #176
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they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway
If nobody in Libya wanted Gadhafi there, why was he there? Even Saddam had a tribal base. This sort of binary analysis obscures far more than it illuminates. To the West's credit, the Libyan rebels cleared one of two major obstacles, but it still remains to be seen whether they can establish a reasonably representative government. If all that results from this is a new military junta who just have a Western-friendly disposition, then it's hardly worth a victory lap just yet.
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:16 AM   #177
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I've never understood the blatant anti-Western attitudes of the New Left. I mean, it's become so farcical that they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway.
As far as I know and as I have seen, this sort of opinion is only held by a small minority of the left. There's nothing to defend in Gadhafi's actions, absolutely nothing.

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If nobody in Libya wanted Gadhafi there, why was he there? Even Saddam had a tribal base. This sort of binary analysis obscures far more than it illuminates. To the West's credit, the Libyan rebels cleared one of two major obstacles, but it still remains to be seen whether they can establish a reasonably representative government. If all that results from this is a new military junta who just have a Western-friendly disposition, then it's hardly worth a victory lap just yet.
Unfortunately this is just about what I see happening. Replacing an authoritarian regime with another authoritarian regime.
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:18 AM   #178
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If nobody in Libya wanted Gadhafi there, why was he there?
Unlike a lot of other Arab dictatorships, which were based primarily on tribal allegiances and other forms of bribery, Gadhafi's was largely based on eliminating any and all forms of opposition, including any kinds of governmental organizations that could challenge him. Mubarak's exit showed that he was ultimately just a ripple in the nation's power base. Libya is a lot more worrisome in that respect, as the rebels will basically have to start from scratch in establishing a government there; Gadhafi ensured that he was Libya and that Libya was entirely dependent on him.
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:18 PM   #179
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I've never understood the blatant anti-Western attitudes of the New Left. I mean, it's become so farcical that they'd rather defend a murderous, clearly deranged and narcissistic dictator that nobody in Libya wants anyway.
I honestly don't know whom you are referring to and your statement above sounds a little out there.

There are plenty of people (on the left and the right) who expressed a genuine feeling that we (Americans, the West):

a) don't understand the Middle East, Libya included; and
b) have amply and repeatedly demonstrated (a) above.

As such, frankly, I am hesitant to lend support to any interventions in that part of the world, because I think that history has shown us that when we do so, we by and large fuck things up.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:09 PM   #180
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I honestly don't know whom you are referring to and your statement above sounds a little out there.
I'm referring to nobody specifically, but more to do with the tenor of "editorials" from people like Kucinich who seem to see every American foreign policy initiative as a rehash of Vietnam. No, the U.S. is not perfect, but the over-emphasis of "Western atrocities," whilst overlooking or even championing those we're fighting against (Sean Penn's embrace of Chavez and Ahmadinejad comes to mind) is quickly becoming a farce. Gadhafi is a murderous terrorist-sponsoring dictator of the worst kind; he is indefensible, even on NATO's worst days. No conflict is bloodless, and no surgical strike is perfect. This isn't the carpet bombing of Germany during the final days of WWII; there is a concerted and genuine effort in Western warfare that wishes to avoid civilian casualties, but regardless of that fact, had Gadhafi left when the writing was clearly on the wall during the Arab Spring, NATO would never have gotten involved. None of this is perfect, but the alternative of letting Gadhafi win victoriously over the rebels...is that an option that everyone was ready to live with? It's certainly easy to come to that conclusion living from the comforts of an advanced Western democracy, but is one that I believe to be morally indefensible if we are to believe that all people have the right to determine their own governance.

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There are plenty of people (on the left and the right) who expressed a genuine feeling that we (Americans, the West):

a) don't understand the Middle East, Libya included; and
b) have amply and repeatedly demonstrated (a) above.

As such, frankly, I am hesitant to lend support to any interventions in that part of the world, because I think that history has shown us that when we do so, we by and large fuck things up.
When I read these kinds of arguments, I generally see the spectre of Iraq, yes? One particular historical moment I end up recalling, however, is how the U.S./West screwed up the aftermath of Gulf War I, where we basically left the Kurds and Shia populations sitting ducks for Saddam's revenge, since we left him in power.

1991 uprisings in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Non-intervention, in this case, made both groups highly distrust the U.S., and it was the spectre of this that made Gulf War II a difficult proposition to wage, as neither was certain as to whether history would repeat itself and the U.S. would leave them high and dry again.

I think one thing that may help the West in regards to the Middle East is being on the right side of history. By not being seen as the purse strings that prop up oppressive dictatorships, groups like Al-Qaeda have less room for argument. If Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya are able to form stable democratic governments--and I don't think anybody believes this to be quick or easy--it may prove to be quite beneficial for defusing terrorism threats to the West. Not only that, but at the end of the day, seeing fellow human beings now able to manage their own happiness and destiny is a very large step toward progress irrespective of any callous interest for the West.

None of this is perfect, but I don't believe that isolationism is the answer.
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