True situation within Greece

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Yikes, Aygo. What you described does sound scary.

I'm starting to keep an eye on Europe because a few weeks ago, the IMF released a report saying the euro troubles could lead to another global recession next year. Just what the world needs....
 
Pearl said:
Yikes, Aygo. What you described does sound scary.

I'm starting to keep an eye on Europe because a few weeks ago, the IMF released a report saying the euro troubles could lead to another global recession next year. Just what the world needs....

Going over the fiscal cliff (and not quickly rectifying things) plus Europe could be a disaster, and for the developing world was well. China's exports would be in serious trouble. Going over the fiscal cliff would mean putting the US in something like what Europe has gone through. But nobody in the US wants that to happen; everyone knows it would be a disaster. It's further evidence that austerity is economically disastrous.
 
I heard that DIMAR rejected the new austerity measures leaving PASOK and Nea Democratia alone (who expelled deputees who also voted against it).
To me it would indicate that this coalition government will not last long, which means that you'll have elections soon again.

Just please don't tell me you will vote for Chrysi Avgi or in the culprits of your situation (PASOK and Nea Democratia) in these probable next elections if you have the legal age to vote.

Everyone says that Portugal is a different case, a successful case, but everything I see is the exact same movie I watched in Greece, only 18 months late in each episode. I'm scared.

I would NEVER vote for CHRYSI AVGI or Pasok and NEA Dimocratia!!!:down:About Chrysi Avgi???There is only one word to describe it.TERRORISTS!!! Most people of my age are acting so stupid.They all support Chrisy Avgi because they think that they are doing something clever and cool,when they actually do the excact opposite!!! I don't know if anyone saw this but there is a video on Youtube with one member of Chrysi Avgi that slappes a member of an other party.That is just off limits!!! And do you know what annoys me the most???That even though so many people had problems with their buissness because of this party so many people still vote for them!!!
 
Yikes, Aygo. What you described does sound scary.

I'm starting to keep an eye on Europe because a few weeks ago, the IMF released a report saying the euro troubles could lead to another global recession next year. Just what the world needs....

The most recent data says that:

Germany's economy is cooling. The growth perspectives were redefined to only 0,2%, which means that they'll also enter into technical recession soon.
In Greece, the unemployment rate ascended to 25,1% and the recession was revised to -7% (30% total in 5 years). In France the scenario for the GDP growth is similar.
In Spain, the unemployment rate still is 25% and the cuts in the budget for the State funcions (education, health and social security mostly) are around €17000 million. In Portugal they want to do it in the same proportion in 2013: €4000 million.

In Portugal...
The initial forecast for the unemployment rate for 2012 was 12,9%. We're at 16%.
The initial forecast for the recession was -2,2%. Now the Bank of Portugal forecasts -3,4%.
The Goverment agreed with the troika (ECB, IMF, EU) a budget deficit of 4,5% for 2012. Yesterday, we found out that until June, our budget, instead of being reduced, it increased from 7,8% (total 2011) to 9% (until June 2012). The Government insists that they'll get to at least a 6% mark (I have no idea how).
 
Going over the fiscal cliff (and not quickly rectifying things) plus Europe could be a disaster, and for the developing world was well. China's exports would be in serious trouble. Going over the fiscal cliff would mean putting the US in something like what Europe has gone through. But nobody in the US wants that to happen; everyone knows it would be a disaster. It's further evidence that austerity is economically disastrous.

In fact, China has already revised twice their growth perspectives for 2012 to lower values, exactly due to fall of the exports to Europe.
 
It's further evidence that austerity is economically disastrous.

Austerity itself isn't economically disastrous, but when a country is in or recovering from a recession it is not stimulating economic growth. But there are situations where that isn't disastrous (like when an economy is booming).

The difficulty for some countries in Europe (like Greece, Spain, Portugal) is that austerity measures are a necessity. For governments to spend money (for instance, for stimulating an economy) they first need to have it, or at least be able to borrow it. And it's currently difficult for them to attract money on the regular capital markets for a decent interest rate. Hence the many painful measures, to gain back confidence of the markets and be able to get lower interest rates.
 
I would NEVER vote for CHRYSI AVGI or Pasok and NEA Dimocratia!!!:down:About Chrysi Avgi???There is only one word to describe it.TERRORISTS!!! Most people of my age are acting so stupid.They all support Chrisy Avgi because they think that they are doing something clever and cool,when they actually do the excact opposite!!! I don't know if anyone saw this but there is a video on Youtube with one member of Chrysi Avgi that slappes a member of an other party.That is just off limits!!! And do you know what annoys me the most???That even though so many people had problems with their buissness because of this party so many people still vote for them!!!

I saw that video. It was on a debate on tv, and the neonazi guy threw away a glass of water on the SYRIZA women and slapped the communist women, wasn't it? I remember that, the portuguese tv's broadcasted the video.
Before the two greek elections, I read things about Chrisy Avgi and... Hew, that's scaring. It just like the NSDAP (nazi party)! How did the greek constition allow the existance of a party like that?

I can figure out when you say that many young people in fact support Chrysi Avgi.
In fact, in Portugal I've been hearing a lot, for example, a hate discourse against gypsies and I'm afraid that they'll become our 1930's jews. I know that they don't want to integrate in the society and that many of them don't work and live of State's funds, but hell, I don't want a chase, a persecution after them because if they're not integrated, it's the State's fault (and in the end, the portuguese society's fault) who failed in its purpose. I go to the South of Spain and they're way much better socially integrated, it's very different.

Where can I find updated results for opinion polling for eventual elections in Greece?
 
Austerity itself isn't economically disastrous, but when a country is in or recovering from a recession it is not stimulating economic growth. But there are situations where that isn't disastrous (like when an economy is booming).

The difficulty for some countries in Europe (like Greece, Spain, Portugal) is that austerity measures are a necessity. For governments to spend money (for instance, for stimulating an economy) they first need to have it, or at least be able to borrow it. And it's currently difficult for them to attract money on the regular capital markets for a decent interest rate. Hence the many painful measures, to gain back confidence of the markets and be able to get lower interest rates.

WRONG! Economical adjustments and rectifications are needed, yes. And that implies some intelligent cuts in certain areas of the State's budget, yes.
That's not the same as austerity.
You have not even one known case of success in economical recovery based in austerity in the recent world History.
I know that The Netherlands have been hand in hand with Germany in the imposition of these punishments to the PIIGS, but be prepared because it'll reach the Central Europe soon. We all followed similar policies and we all increased our public debts due to the same reason after 2008. It's a question of when.

The question of the financial markets is (sorry for the language use) pure shit.
The ECB is forbidden to lend money to the countries and can only do it to the banks.
The banks are getting money from the ECB at 0,75%(!!!).
The "bailouts" to the PIIGS had much higher interest rates. In Portugal's case it was 6% (average) but it was later revised to 4% (average). It still is much higher than the 0,75% offered to any private bank and much higher to the economic grown rates (which are, in fact, negative, recessive). Which means that we will never (be able to) pay that debt, specially these rates.
It's estimates, in the portuguese case that, 8% of the 2013 State Budget is only for interest rates. That's criminal it it should be severily punished.

Meanwhile, the german, french, dutch and british (among other) banks who had been buying greek, portuguese, spanish (and other) public debt with delicious interest rates, now are getting rid of those financial actives by the money they get from the ECB, which now they "lend" to these countries (and respective) banks at criminal interest rates.

So, when I hear that the german taxpayers are paying for us. It's a lie. We are paying for the recapitalization of their banks and for their insanities over years and years. And that explains why only in the first 9 months of 2012, the portuguese banks lost €22000 million that flew away to banks of these countries.
 
I saw that video. It was on a debate on tv, and the neonazi guy threw away a glass of water on the SYRIZA women and slapped the communist women, wasn't it? I remember that, the portuguese tv's broadcasted the video.
Before the two greek elections, I read things about Chrisy Avgi and... Hew, that's scaring. It just like the NSDAP (nazi party)! How did the greek constition allow the existance of a party like that?

I can figure out when you say that many young people in fact support Chrysi Avgi.
In fact, in Portugal I've been hearing a lot, for example, a hate discourse against gypsies and I'm afraid that they'll become our 1930's jews. I know that they don't want to integrate in the society and that many of them don't work and live of State's funds, but hell, I don't want a chase, a persecution after them because if they're not integrated, it's the State's fault (and in the end, the portuguese society's fault) who failed in its purpose. I go to the South of Spain and they're way much better socially integrated, it's very different.

Where can I find updated results for opinion polling for eventual elections in Greece?

That is excactly the video I am talking about.And I agree with this matter with the gypsies because as I know a simmilar matter concurnes Greece too.I am not sure at all actually,I might be wrong.

I don't have the slighttest idea about when are the next elections in Greece.But I am sure that with these people that we "call" our leaders we will very soon have.
 
That is excactly the video I am talking about.And I agree with this matter with the gypsies because as I know a simmilar matter concurnes Greece too.I am not sure at all actually,I might be wrong.

I don't have the slighttest idea about when are the next elections in Greece.But I am sure that with these people that we "call" our leaders we will very soon have.

Do you think there's the eminence of a Coup D'État that turns Greece into a "regime of Coronels" again?

The video is that Philisedge is talking about is this one, for those who haven't seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6TbLmeFoQ
 
Do you think there's the eminence of a Coup D'État that turns Greece into a "regime of Coronels" again?

I am not quite sure.Well,I hope not.I think that Greeks won't allow that.This country has gone through many difficulties,wars and took some great and some awefull decisions at the same time,but I don't think that they will make such an (sorry for my excprations)idiot decision.You know,this question that you just made is perfect for tomorrow,because for the next three days Greece celebrates
the Polytechnic uprising.I don't know if you are fammiliar with it,but it has to do with dictatorship in Greece almost 37 years ago.Irrony,huh?
 
I am not quite sure.Well,I hope not.I think that Greeks won't allow that.This country has gone through many difficulties,wars and took some great and some awefull decisions at the same time,but I don't think that they will make such an (sorry for my excprations)idiot decision.You know,this question that you just made is perfect for tomorrow,because for the next three days Greece celebrates
the Polytechnic uprising.I don't know if you are fammiliar with it,but it has to do with dictatorship in Greece almost 37 years ago.Irrony,huh?

I never heard about it. Maybe The Polytechnic uprising is similar to the "Carnation Revolution" of 38 years ago, celebrated each April 25th, no?
Is it the date that you celebrate the end of the military dictatorship?
 
I never heard about it. Maybe The Polytechnic uprising is similar to the "Carnation Revolution" of 38 years ago, celebrated each April 25th, no?
Is it the date that you celebrate the end of the military dictatorship?

I think so.I haven't actually heard of the Carnation Revolution,but it is a kind of the end of the military dictatorship.If you ever heard of the name "Metaxas"(not the drink) who was the principal of Greece allmost 70 years ago(and also a HUGE dictator) then I think you might understand what I mean.
 
I think so.I haven't actually heard of the Carnation Revolution,but it is a kind of the end of the military dictatorship.If you ever heard of the name "Metaxas"(not the drink) who was the principal of Greece allmost 70 years ago(and also a HUGE dictator) then I think you might understand what I mean.

I've never heard about it, but I guess I'm going to search more about it. It seems that our countries have a lot in common. Metaxas is probably the similar to Salazar's Estado Novo dictatorship (1926-1974). Maybe there's even more in common then what I'd suppose.
 
I've never heard about it, but I guess I'm going to search more about it. It seems that our countries have a lot in common. Metaxas is probably the similar to Salazar's Estado Novo dictatorship (1926-1974). Maybe there's even more in common then what I'd suppose.

You're right.I just searched the internet in order to find information.My father was sitting next to me and I asked him wether he ever heard of him.He actually heard a man named like this but it was one other person that he was talking about,maybe a member of his family.Metaxas and Salazar Estado Novo are similar to each other.Who knows,maybe they knew each other back then because it seems like they were leaving in the same period of life.I know that during that period Metaxas was cooperating with other politicians from other countries. Anyway,we can surely understand that dictatorship is simmilar to hell,so let just hope that we will never go back there!!!
 
You're right.I just searched the internet in order to find information.My father was sitting next to me and I asked him wether he ever heard of him.He actually heard a man named like this but it was one other person that he was talking about,maybe a member of his family.Metaxas and Salazar Estado Novo are similar to each other.Who knows,maybe they knew each other back then because it seems like they were leaving in the same period of life.I know that during that period Metaxas was cooperating with other politicians from other countries. Anyway,we can surely understand that dictatorship is simmilar to hell,so let just hope that we will never go back there!!!

Salazar was closer to Franco (Spain), Mussolini (Italy) and Hitler (Germany).
I mean, Salazar was not friends of them, because both Hitler and Franco had plans to invade and occupy Portugal, but Salazar managed the relationships with them (as "that friend who's only there for interest and second intentions") for them not to invade us.
But Salazar was a supporter of Hitler's, but mostly Mussolini's regime. In fact, Salazar built and grew based himself and his regime on the "fascio theory" of the italian fascism.
However, he was cautious about the holocaust and about what he knew about Germany/Italy.
In the II WW, Portugal was that silly coward that declared itself neutral, but intensively collaborated simultaneously both with the Allies (France, UK, USA...) and the Axis (Germany, Italy, etc). That's how Salazar survived the II WW and was declared as the saviour of the nation.
 
Salazar was closer to Franco (Spain), Mussolini (Italy) and Hitler (Germany).
I mean, Salazar was not friends of them, because both Hitler and Franco had plans to invade and occupy Portugal, but Salazar managed the relationships with them (as "that friend who's only there for interest and second intentions") for them not to invade us.
But Salazar was a supporter of Hitler's, but mostly Mussolini's regime. In fact, Salazar built and grew based himself and his regime on the "fascio theory" of the italian fascism.
However, he was cautious about the holocaust and about what he knew about Germany/Italy.
In the II WW, Portugal was that silly coward that declared itself neutral, but intensively collaborated simultaneously both with the Allies (France, UK, USA...) and the Axis (Germany, Italy, etc). That's how Salazar survived the II WW and was declared as the saviour of the nation.

I am sure that Salazar knew Metaxas,because Hitler and Mussolini tried to invade Greece that time.That is when actually he took a correct decision for once.Actually no,he didn't take any decisions,PEOPLE took the decision of saying no to Mussoliny when he asked the Greeks to surrender.Then I was wrong by saying cooperate,they just knew each other.
 
I am sure that Salazar knew Metaxas,because Hitler and Mussolini tried to invade Greece that time.That is when actually he took a correct decision for once.Actually no,he didn't take any decisions,PEOPLE took the decision of saying no to Mussoliny when he asked the Greeks to surrender.Then I was wrong by saying cooperate,they just knew each other.

Yeah, they probably knew each other and collaborated. I have to research more about it. A friend of mine is speciallist in foreign politics during the Estado Novo regime, I'll ask her about it.

I've been reading some things about greek politics, and the most surprising thing to me is that a big part of the most important greek politicians have all the same surnames. Many of them are called Venizelos, Karamanlis, Papandreou, Samaras, etc. To a foreigner it gives the (maybe wrong) impression that greek politics work as a monarchy in a familly-heritage-descendant system. Is that true or these are only common/popular names in Greece?
 
I was making some research about the Portuguese public debt and its evolution, through news articles, official data of the Government/Bank Of Portugal/Eurostat and I found out that:

In a quarter, I repeat, in just three months, the portuguese public debt went from 107% to 118% (11%... in just three months).
- In 2008 was circa €90 billion (64%).
- In 2011, before the troika came in, soared to around €150 billion (90%).
- Today, in 2012, the data from October 2012 estimated €228 billion.
- Of these €228 billion, €120 billion are related to debt interests or debt repayment expenses. Which means that 53% of the debt is based in criminals interests and especulation. I repeat: 53% of the debt.

Nobody ever wondered why, suddenly, from 2008 to 2009 the debt of countries like Portugal, France, Germany, Greece, Slovenia, among others, has nearly doubled. Nobody remembers what the ECB, then commanded by Jean-Claude Trichet, ordered the states to do, immediately after the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in 2008. This fact was completely erased from the memory of the populace. Go find out what happened, 'cause I'm not gonna tell you again.
Nobody asks why instead of reducing debt (which would be its purpose), the memorandum of the troika, signed in May 2011, increased ​​even more to levels than will never ever will be paid.

Therefore, the first moron who comes to me (in flesh) with the kind of speech my country needs austerity, that I've been living over my possibilites; that this money "lent" is to pay salaries and pensions; that this is working well that it's having good results, that it is the only way and that there is no alternative; that this is not ideological, and that is all for our good... The next one who says something that, I will punch him in the face, just to see if he stops his brain $#!£ and starts putting his lazy neurons and his brain working. [Obviously I won't do that... Well, just until I (or most people) have nothing else to lose]
 
No, I'm pretty sure the first thing those types of morons deserve is a swift punch to the face!
 
clearly, we've been bailing out the banks all along - that's why a lot of anger is directed against the 2% who just keep on screwing the rest of us over

it makes me so angry it's unreal...
 
I was making some research about the Portuguese public debt and its evolution, through news articles, official data of the Government/Bank Of Portugal/Eurostat and I found out that:

In a quarter, I repeat, in just three months, the portuguese public debt went from 107% to 118% (11%... in just three months).
- In 2008 was circa €90 billion (64%).
- In 2011, before the troika came in, soared to around €150 billion (90%).
- Today, in 2012, the data from October 2012 estimated €228 billion.
- Of these €228 billion, €120 billion are related to debt interests or debt repayment expenses. Which means that 53% of the debt is based in criminals interests and especulation. I repeat: 53% of the debt.

Nobody ever wondered why, suddenly, from 2008 to 2009 the debt of countries like Portugal, France, Germany, Greece, Slovenia, among others, has nearly doubled. Nobody remembers what the ECB, then commanded by Jean-Claude Trichet, ordered the states to do, immediately after the bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers in 2008. This fact was completely erased from the memory of the populace. Go find out what happened, 'cause I'm not gonna tell you again.
Nobody asks why instead of reducing debt (which would be its purpose), the memorandum of the troika, signed in May 2011, increased ​​even more to levels than will never ever will be paid.

Therefore, the first moron who comes to me (in flesh) with the kind of speech my country needs austerity, that I've been living over my possibilites; that this money "lent" is to pay salaries and pensions; that this is working well that it's having good results, that it is the only way and that there is no alternative; that this is not ideological, and that is all for our good... The next one who says something that, I will punch him in the face, just to see if he stops his brain $#!£ and starts putting his lazy neurons and his brain working. [Obviously I won't do that... Well, just until I (or most people) have nothing else to lose]

yeah the speculators - i remember that - it was almost like "ok, which country shall we bring to its knees today?" - shameful... it's an economic war...
 
The (already predictable) next victim:

Moody's downgrades French credit rating

The country's debt has been reduced from AAA to AA1 and has kept its negative outlook, meaning it could be downgraded again.

In a statement, Moody's blamed the risk of a Greek exit from the euro, stalled economic growth and the chances that France will have to contribute to bailing out other countries.


The same movie (with 2 years late by report to Portugal or Greece), the same justification, the same steps.
 
Yeah, they probably knew each other and collaborated. I have to research more about it. A friend of mine is speciallist in foreign politics during the Estado Novo regime, I'll ask her about it.

I've been reading some things about greek politics, and the most surprising thing to me is that a big part of the most important greek politicians have all the same surnames. Many of them are called Venizelos, Karamanlis, Papandreou, Samaras, etc. To a foreigner it gives the (maybe wrong) impression that greek politics work as a monarchy in a familly-heritage-descendant system. Is that true or these are only common/popular names in Greece?

Sorry for not repling to you you any earlier.Well,those people who happen to have these names are such crooks!!! Ok,I agree that some of them made at least something right,like Karamanlis who got us into the Europion Union(which I by the way start to wonder if it was really a right decision),but they are indeed as I said before,big,fat crooks(except from Samaras and Papandreou who were not fat in compaire with Venizelos and Karamanlis:lol:)!!! Those names are not comon here.It's just that years ago some politics who had these surnames where in the goverment and after their deaths their children or grandchildren took their place,or easier as you said it is a familly-heritage-descendant with the only difference that all those years we have been voting for ... maybe I shoulden't use the excpration!
 
The (already predictable) next victim:

Moody's downgrades French credit rating

The country's debt has been reduced from AAA to AA1 and has kept its negative outlook, meaning it could be downgraded again.

In a statement, Moody's blamed the risk of a Greek exit from the euro, stalled economic growth and the chances that France will have to contribute to bailing out other countries.


The same movie (with 2 years late by report to Portugal or Greece), the same justification, the same steps.

these rating agencies serve the interests of and are paid by the corporations, and luckily it looks like governments are learning not to take them too seriously especially as their recommendations clearly do not appear to be working! the French PM has interpreted the downgrade as a sanction re. the previous government - hopefully things won't go into panic mode and we won't be pressurised by a bunch of unelected arseholes...

here's a pretty good article on the situation in France

France should not be bounced into reform by Moody's downgrade | Business | guardian.co.uk

And Hollande is far from deaf to the complaints of industry that it's too burdened with social costs and strung about with regulations to succeed: his prime minister has announced €20bn-worth of tax-breaks for firms, after a report by ex-EADS boss Louis Gallois called for a national "competitiveness shock". France does need to reform — but it will be a complex, politically fraught process that should be carefully managed. Recent experience suggests heeding the advice of the IMF, let along the ratings agencies, is not even a recipe for economic success, let alone social or political harmony
 
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