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Old 12-09-2011, 04:39 PM   #76
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With one little word, Prime Minister David Cameron breaks the European taboo - Telegraph
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:28 PM   #77
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A thought, I thought, I would add to this discussion on Europe and it's current
crisis.



"The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

~Margaret Thatcher
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:32 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
A thought, I thought, I would add to this discussion on Europe and it's current
crisis.



"The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

~Margaret Thatcher
Good and timely quote. Thatcher always suspected the EU of being an essentially a socialist project. Can't say I disagree with her.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:34 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
A thought, I thought, I would add to this discussion on Europe and it's current
crisis.



"The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

~Margaret Thatcher
Thatcher said many good and bad things. Like this.

I truly believe that almost all ideology-based-systems as socialism, social-democracy, christian/orthodox-democracy, ecologism, neo-communism, etc., can be good and can result if applied for the people, not against the people and if has a good finantial plan.

Did Thatcher remember too what she did to the heavy indistries of the UK in the 1980's?
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:36 PM   #80
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Did Thatcher remember too what she did to the heavy indistries of the UK in the 1980's?
That is one narrative. Another is that by refusing to co-operate with the changes that were so sorely needed, the unions caused the demise of heavy industry in the UK.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:58 PM   #81
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Good and timely quote. Thatcher always suspected the EU of being an essentially a socialist project. Can't say I disagree with her.
The EU project if it was a socialist project, it was way long ago, even before Thatcher.
The biggest and most flagrant difference between Socialism and Social-Democracy (and that all pseudo-socialist leaders and parties avoid to talk and to explain) is that Social-Democracy accepts the market-type economy and its basic rules and Socialism doesn't, better, Socialism avoids it.

So, not only the European leaders of the 1970's accepted with open arms the total desregulation for the financial markets of the early 1970's that included Europe, but the 1980's and 1990's leaders decided not to go back into it and to follow an european construction based, precisely, on the free market concurrency.

Other examples that THIS european construction is now way socialist at all is the project of European Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty. I remember somethings that I have already posted on this forum about the Lisbon Treaty and the project of European Constitution. I'm going to do copy/paste of a post I did in November about this subject:

- It's a liberalist constitution;
- When it's approved it's not possible to change it;
- The word "bank" appears 176 times (in more than those 800 pages), "market" 78 times, "competition" 174 times... And "social progress" 3 times... "brotherhood" or "fraternity" appears... 0(!) times;
- "Public service" is reffered... Only 1(!) time and only to talk about transport coordination;
- "The right to have a job", "the right to a minimum salary, income or retirement pension", "the right to health" are reffered... 0(!) times. There no "right to accomodation", but only the "right to be accomodated";
- It reffers that "public services must be privatized and oppened to competition" and it says that "public help funds" must be restricted;
- The European Parliment has no right to propose laws, that's a function of the European Commission which is not directly elected in the european elections;
- The priority of the EU is to fight - not unemployment, not poverty, but... - inflation;
- European Central Bank is... completely independent, it has no control, which means that the UE is not allowed to define its own monetary policies;
- In case of war, the priority is - not the UE intervention to stop it, not an appeal to United Nations, but instead... - to avoid turmoils in the financial markets;


So, where in the hell is the EU a socialist project nowadays, when there's not even a single real-Socialist party is any of the countries of the EU?
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:51 AM   #82
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Good and timely quote. Thatcher always suspected the EU of being an essentially a socialist project. Can't say I disagree with her.
The EU a socialist project? Gimme a break. The EU is incredibly neo-liberal. For example, nationalization is practically forbidden under EU law. So is making things free for your citizens: some years ago, the Dutch government had devised a plan to make textbooks free for secondary school students. The EU forbade it because the plan meant that private companies couldn't sell textbooks to secondary schools anymore.

Yet another example: under EU law, subsidizing an important regional airport amounts to illegal government support, as the Belgian region of Wallonia found out after they helped financing Brussels South Charleroi airport. This low-cost airline hub is an important contributor to the Walloon economy so every right minded politician in Wallonia - one of the poorer regions in North-Western Europe - would want to support its existence. But not the neo-liberal EU, which believes in fairy tales and thinks "the free market" will solve all our problems. Well, we've seen how that worked out, didn't we? The biggest economic crisis since the 20s... hurray for the free market.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:59 AM   #83
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The EU a socialist project? Gimme a break.
Oh, you don't see Brussels having rubber stamp approval over national budgets, spending, and borrowing of sovereign countries as an issue?

E pluribus shitshow.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:47 AM   #84
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Oh, you don't see Brussels having rubber stamp approval over national budgets, spending, and borrowing of sovereign countries as an issue?

E pluribus shitshow.
When did imperialism become a socialist thing?
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:17 AM   #85
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The EU a socialist project? Gimme a break. The EU is incredibly neo-liberal. For example, nationalization is practically forbidden under EU law. So is making things free for your citizens: some years ago, the Dutch government had devised a plan to make textbooks free for secondary school students. The EU forbade it because the plan meant that private companies couldn't sell textbooks to secondary schools anymore.

Yet another example: under EU law, subsidizing an important regional airport amounts to illegal government support, as the Belgian region of Wallonia found out after they helped financing Brussels South Charleroi airport. This low-cost airline hub is an important contributor to the Walloon economy so every right minded politician in Wallonia - one of the poorer regions in North-Western Europe - would want to support its existence. But not the neo-liberal EU, which believes in fairy tales and thinks "the free market" will solve all our problems. Well, we've seen how that worked out, didn't we? The biggest economic crisis since the 20s... hurray for the free market.
Let me guess: this happens in Wallonie, but in Flanders is the opposite situation. Right?
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:52 PM   #86
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Let me guess: this happens in Wallonie, but in Flanders is the opposite situation. Right?
How would you define 'the opposite situation'? In any case, there's no 1:1 comparison possible because Flanders does not have any low-cost airline hubs. For Ryanair, Wizz Air, etc., Brussels South Charleroi airport is the only Belgian destination.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:10 PM   #87
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so when the crisis started it was the fault of every banker, speculist and any member of any of the economically irresponsible government
and some rules might be initiated to prevent this from continuing we're all socialists?

consider my mind freed indeed
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:06 PM   #88
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How would you define 'the opposite situation'? In any case, there's no 1:1 comparison possible because Flanders does not have any low-cost airline hubs. For Ryanair, Wizz Air, etc., Brussels South Charleroi airport is the only Belgian destination.
Oh, I thought it had the same kind of companies too. But is there such a big difference between Flanders and Wallonie in terms of richness/GDP and quality of life?
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Old 12-18-2011, 09:31 AM   #89
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Oh, I thought it had the same kind of companies too. But is there such a big difference between Flanders and Wallonie in terms of richness/GDP and quality of life?
Well, there's a clear difference for sure. Wallonia used to be the richer of the two regions because of its iron and coal mines, but it lost the market to new players in the mining industry such as Brazil and South Africa. Subsequently, enterprises chose Flanders instead of Wallonia as the place to settle, because the former has sea ports and had lower wages at the time. The Belgian government created legal incentives for companies to settle in Flanders, thereby accelerating the relocalization of the country's economic core from south to north. Nowadays, Wallonia contributes 23.8% to the Belgian GDP while Flanders contributes 57.1% (the remaining 19.1% represents the Brussels Capital Region).

Still, this is only relative. Even with the lower wealth compared to its northern counterpart, Wallonia is still a rich, developed, Western region.

It's nonetheless sad that the EU tried to thwart the attempt at revitalizing the Walloon economy by subsidizing its airport. It's a textbook example of neo-liberal policies actually impeding economic growth.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:52 PM   #90
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Oh okay, now it makes sense for a foreigner like me. It reminds me of Italy, with a much richer North and a poorer South.
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