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Old 11-07-2012, 08:03 PM   #226
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Makes you wonder how many of these battles between the protestors and the police it will take to create something resembling a revolution.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:00 PM   #227
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A text I found circulating on Facebook about the greek situation, the german reaction and the paralelism between the german situation on the 1950's:

["quick" translation (from Pt to Eng) made by myself]

Where did memory go? - A little bit of History
And it is interesting to recall the facts:

In 1953, less than 60 years ago - a generation - the Germany of Konrad Adenauer went into default, bankruptcy, went "kaput", or ran out money to move the country's economic activity. Just like Greece currently.
Germany negotiated 16 billion deutsch marks in debt from 1920 that went into default in the 30s after the stock market crash on Wall Street. The money had been loaned by the USA, France and the UK.
Another 16 billion deutsch marks were for loans in U.S. postwar, under the London Agreement on German Debts (LDA), 1953. The total payable was reduced 50% to about 15 billion marks for a period of 30 years, which had almost no impact on the German economy growing. (1)
The German surrender was made by a group of countries including Greece, Belgium, Canada, Ceylon, Denmark, France, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Pakistan, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, South Africa, the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, the USA and Yugoslavia.
The german debts were made before and after World War II. Some with origin on war reparations and other from giant loans from the American government and businesses. For 20 years, how this agreement recalls, Berlin did not honor any debt payment (!).
Incredibly, just eight years after Greece was invaded and brutally occupied by Nazi troops, Athens agreed to participate in the international effort to take Germany's out of the terrible bankruptcy it was in. Now the monetary costs of the German occupation of Greece was estimated at 162 billion euros without interest. After the war, Germany was offset by losses in Greece or captured ships bombarded during the period of neutrality, for damage to the Greek economy, and pay compensation to the victims of the German army of occupation. The estimated number of Greek victims is than a million people (38,960 executed, 12 000 slaughtered, 70 000 killed in battle, 105,000 in concentration camps in Germany, and 600 thousand who perished of hunger). Moreover, the Nazi hordes stolen priceless Greek archaeological treasures.
What was the reaction of the German parliamentary right to the current financial problems of Greece? According to this, Greece should consider selling land, historic buildings and art objects to reduce your debt.
Besides taking austerity measures imposed as public sector cuts and the freezing of pensions, the Greeks should sell some islands - defended by two prominent members of the CDU [Christian-Democratic Union], Josef Schlarmann and Frank Schaeffler, the party of Chancellor Merkel. The two officials came to opine that the Parthenon, and some Greek islands in the Aegean, should be sold to avoid bankruptcy. "Those that are insolvent should sell what they have to pay their creditors," they said to the newspaper "Bild".
After that, came inside the german executive the pilgrim-idea of ​​putting an european commissioner to oversee the accounts permanently Greek in Athens.
The historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics, recently recalled the "Spiegel" that Germany was the worst debtor nation of the twentieth century. The economist notes that the insolvency of the German debt of the 1930's makes the Greek one today seem insignificant. "In the twentieth century, Germany was responsible for the largest bankruptcy in living memory," he said. "It was only thanks to the United States, which pumped huge amounts of money after the First and Second World War that Germany became financially stable today and holds the status of locomotive of Europe. This fact, unfortunately, seems forgotten," stresses Ritsch.
The historian notes that Germany has unleashed two world wars, the second of annihilation and extermination, and then his enemies forgave him fully payment of reparations or postponed them. Greece does not forget that Germany owes its economic prosperity to other countries. Therefore, some Greeks lawmakers suggest that accounting of German debts to Greece is made so of these amount Greece discounts what Germany owes to Greece.
The ingratitude of countries, as well as people's, is often accompanied by a lack of memory.

by Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics)


(1) The agreement also stated that Germany would only pay per year the equivalent to a percentage of its exports, so, the payment of the debt would follow Germany's economic evolution, allowing Germany to develop its economy and so pay its debt. Something that is 100% ignored for the countries in trouble like Greece, Portugal, Spain, etc.
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Old 11-10-2012, 02:00 PM   #228
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If you want to know how someone from Greece feels,then you can ask me.I don't know anything about politics because I am still a teenager and because I actually don't even want to know,but the sure thing is that everyone around me does and doesn't seem to be very huppy about this whole situation.I was born in Athens and I remember when life was peaceful,but a few years later everything changed(for me as I remember,but I think things were already bad back then too).I moved from Athens to another smaller city in cental Greece a few years ago,but still I watch at the news that there are lots of problems in Athens.Everytime I visit my relatives there,I always run into protests.Everyone is unhuppy because nobody knows what is going to happen the next day. All I know is that there are lots of scandals that are about greek polititians,that most times(99,9%)are true,and make people go nutts!!! I just wonder how the hell I and thousends of other kids are going to grow up with this kind of problems,without even knowing if we will ever find a job that is going to ensure us a salary in order to pay all the taxes,the bills and have some money left in order to have something to eat.I know that there are worse situations than this,but still I can't say that I'm living a life full of roses like some people who work at the parliament and get HUGE salaries!!!Yes, I admit that I have things that I want and I have to say that I don't need more things than those I aready have,but still I don't want to leave in my country like this,waking up and listening to all those bad things!!!
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:26 PM   #229
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If you want to know how someone from Greece feels,then you can ask me.I don't know anything about politics because I am still a teenager and because I actually don't even want to know,but the sure thing is that everyone around me does and doesn't seem to be very huppy about this whole situation.I was born in Athens and I remember when life was peaceful,but a few years later everything changed(for me as I remember,but I think things were already bad back then too).I moved from Athens to another smaller city in cental Greece a few years ago,but still I watch at the news that there are lots of problems in Athens.Everytime I visit my relatives there,I always run into protests.Everyone is unhuppy because nobody knows what is going to happen the next day. All I know is that there are lots of scandals that are about greek polititians,that most times(99,9%)are true,and make people go nutts!!! I just wonder how the hell I and thousends of other kids are going to grow up with this kind of problems,without even knowing if we will ever find a job that is going to ensure us a salary in order to pay all the taxes,the bills and have some money left in order to have something to eat.I know that there are worse situations than this,but still I can't say that I'm living a life full of roses like some people who work at the parliament and get HUGE salaries!!!Yes, I admit that I have things that I want and I have to say that I don't need more things than those I aready have,but still I don't want to leave in my country like this,waking up and listening to all those bad things!!!
I heard that DIMAR rejected the new austerity measures leaving PASOK and Nea Democratia alone (who expelled deputees who also voted against it).
To me it would indicate that this coalition government will not last long, which means that you'll have elections soon again.

Just please don't tell me you will vote for Chrysi Avgi or in the culprits of your situation (PASOK and Nea Democratia) in these probable next elections if you have the legal age to vote.

Everyone says that Portugal is a different case, a successful case, but everything I see is the exact same movie I watched in Greece, only 18 months late in each episode. I'm scared.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:09 PM   #230
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Today, Angela Merkel visited one of the provinces of her new IV Reich, Portugal. The city of Lisbon almost stopped because of her.
I'll take the opportunity to post a photo of the press conference that she and her puppy, Passos Coelho, gave this afternoon in Lisbon.



Now I ask for those who payed more attention to the picture: what's the wrong thing about this photo?
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:49 PM   #231
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So the United States of Europe officially exists now? And Angela Merkel is its President? Wow...
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:51 AM   #232
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So the United States of Europe officially exists now?
we're on our way
and some day it will include the UK too
though probably not in my lifetime
but it is inevitable
you have to be one very optimistic person to believe any European country (apart, maybe, from Germany, funny enough) will be able to compete on the world market 50 years from now

I don't condone what Europe is doing to Greece
but the fact is that stronger economies and less strong economies will finally have to merge (something that should have been done prior to the Euro really)
and the stronger economies will not allow for this without letting the others bleed

is this fair? no
but since they have voters to answer to, it is what it is
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:18 AM   #233
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anti-austerity strikes across Europe today:

Anti-austerity strikes and protests across Europe - live | Business | guardian.co.uk
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:39 PM   #234
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=VmsxzCDwchA

Watch the video.
This is Lisbon, an hour ago.
«Portugal is not Greece». «Portugal is the good obedient pupil where everything's going well.»

Do you know why this happened suddenly?
Because there's a football match on TV within a few minutes.
If you understand portuguese, you'll notice that around 2:30, there's a journalist saying to the police something like «Don't hit us! Don't hit us! We're journalists!»
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:27 PM   #235
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Police chasing protestors and then beating them? Seems like the usual in economic situations such as these.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:13 PM   #236
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Police chasing protestors and then beating them? Seems like the usual in economic situations such as these.
We're not used to such violence here in Portugal. Although there's some violence, not like this. This is just the beggining of a crescendo here.
I don't know if it also happens in other countries or not (in Spain it does), but here it's not the first time that the police forgets all kinds of rational thoughts and starts spanking all types of people, from young people to old people (today in Spain the police even beated on a 10 year old boy who had nothing to do with it), from protestors to journalists...
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:47 AM   #237
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it's just horrendous - there are some very disturbing photos of police brutality from yesterday in Spain on facebook

i thought the police were meant to be "civil servants", protecting the people - we're the ones who pay them with our taxes!
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:26 AM   #238
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i thought the police were meant to be "civil servants", protecting the people - we're the ones who pay them with our taxes!
Nope, they've only ever existed to support private property and the state.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:00 AM   #239
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I haven't seen the pictures,
but I would guess that the protestors weren't holding hands & singing 'Give peace a chance' when the police decided to beat the &#!+ out of them.

I'm also sure that at some places police has used excessive force though.
But I don't think Europe has quite become a warzone where chaos rules.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:14 AM   #240
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I haven't seen the pictures,
but I would guess that the protestors weren't holding hands & singing 'Give peace a chance' when the police decided to beat the &#!+ out of them.

I'm also sure that at some places police has used excessive force though.
But I don't think Europe has quite become a warzone where chaos rules.
Nope. Some protestors weren't holding hands and singing for peace.
Some.
In many videos it is clear that many people were only there in anger just to protest peacefully.
I was in another part of the city, so I didn't watch this live, only on tv.
I've been reading the reports and watching the news and I'm a bit shocked.

There's people reporting that the "bad guys" had been throwing rocks and glass bottles to the police and to the parliment for a long time and only suddenly without a special "event", the police came down and started to spank everyone they found, irracionally, as robots.

Some people report that there were mostly old people, children and women crying in panic because of the sudden act of violence. There are reports of parents with their children in their arms, running from the police who were running after them and beat them in the legs, so they fell, got bruised and went to the hospital. There are also images of the police shooting at the windows of the people who live there and that were watching all that in their balconies.

And now the news that hundreds of people were arrested, including people that had nothing to do with the demonstration/riot (because the S. Bento area is pretty central and it is the connection between many streets and neighbourhoods) and many of them were prevented to see lawyers (who were blocked to enter the police departments), which is forbidden here.

To me, this smells too much like Estado Novo. It reminds me too much of the old regime and it scares me
We were not used to this kind of things for a long time here...
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