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Old 06-17-2012, 11:10 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by financeguy

Actually, to be fair, the Fox article - not that I'd usually defend them - is similar to how it's been portrayed in the European media. I wasn't aware of that 50 seats bonus thing until I read it in Aygo's post. Which of itself is pretty scary.
But even if you take the Fox article at face value, do you think the title reflects the content?
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:26 PM   #152
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Well, I am aware, from chatting to Portuguese counterparts, even 4 or 5 years ago, they were saying there was no boom in Portugal. In Ireland, we seem to have gotten the benefits of the boom - or bubble, as I prefer to call it - and also of course suffered the effects of the resultant crash. I suppose it is because of this that we do not complain too loudly. Lest Angela will hear us, and increase our taxes even more, heh heh.
And it is true: Portugal has no "boom". Portugal doesn't have a problem with the real estate market (like Spain has) or with toxic financial assets (like Ireland and Island had).
Portugal has different kind of problems:
1) an economy that doesn't grow for a decade, after the EU told us/payed us to shut down industries (20%) and agriculture/fishery (5%) and turned our economy based in non-exportable services (75%);
2) having an economy based in low salaries, precariousness, antiquated entrepreneurs without vision and a State that stifles business with taxes;
3) paying the State's services and loads of unnecessary public works with debt;
4) Public-private partnerships: agreements that the State did with private corporations, so these corporations have the concession of public transports/energy/hospitals/highways. These corporations are leaded by ex-PS or PSD boys (the parties that rotate in the Government) that made contracts (with the help of lawyers big offices) with the State that are highly pernicious. For you to have an idea, taxpayers and citizens will have to pay more than €50 billion until 2050 for these contracts that are so well made that the State cannot it's frauds of bad faith. The logic of the governments was «construct it/explore it now, pay it after» and leave it for the private corporations, they'll take care of it "very well".

These are the main items that I recall now and that I think that distinguish the portuguese case.

Addendums...
It was the State who has indebted itself, not the people in their consumption.
About the bank... Portuguese banks are having problems of capitalization because the economy is freezing and the ECB is not releasing much money, but portuguese banks are not very exposed to other countries' sovereign debts, neither to toxic assets.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:34 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Aygo View Post
And it is true: Portugal has no "boom". Portugal doesn't have a problem with the real estate market (like Spain has) or with toxic financial assets (like Ireland and Island had).
Portugal has different kind of problems:
1) an economy that doesn't grow for a decade, after the EU told us/payed us to shut down industries (20%) and agriculture/fishery (5%) and turned our economy based in non-exportable services (75%);
2) having an economy based in low salaries, precariousness, antiquated entrepreneurs without vision and a State that stifles business with taxes;
3) paying the State's services and loads of unnecessary public works with debt;
4) Public-private partnerships: agreements that the State did with private corporations, so these corporations have the concession of public transports/energy/hospitals/highways. These corporations are leaded by ex-PS or PSD boys (the parties that rotate in the Government) that made contracts (with the help of lawyers big offices) with the State that are highly pernicious. For you to have an idea, taxpayers and citizens will have to pay more than €50 billion until 2050 for these contracts that are so well made that the State cannot it's frauds of bad faith.

These are the main items that I recall now and that I think that distinguish the portuguese case.

Addendums...
It was the State who has indebted itself, not the people in their consumption.
About the bank... Portuguese banks are having problems of capitalization because the economy is freezing and the ECB is not releasing much money, but portuguese banks are not very exposed to other countries' sovereign debts, neither to toxic assets.
So problems of political corruption, "old boys' network" and the like. I think this is common in small countries, to be honest. We have similar problems in Ireland.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:38 PM   #154
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So problems of political corruption, "old boys' network" and the like. I think this is common in small countries, to be honest. We have similar problems in Ireland.
Yeah, you're right, unfortunately. OECD still places Portugal in the Top5 of the most corrupt. The difference is in the kind of "dirty jobs" these boys make in each country.
In Spain it lead to a problem in the real estate market. In Portugal it lead here.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:40 PM   #155
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Yeah, you're right, unfortunately. OECD still places Portugal in the Top5 of the most corrupt. The difference is in the kind of "dirty jobs" these boys make in each country.
In Spain it lead to a problem in the real estate market. In Portugal it lead here.
To be honest, I am always amazed that Ireland does not score higher on these corruption lists. Must do better, Ireland. (joke ).
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:47 PM   #156
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To be honest, I am always amazed that Ireland does not score higher on these corruption lists. Must do better, Ireland. (joke ).
I remember that although not as bad as Italy, Portugal or Greece, Ireland usually didn't score well too in the OECD lists. It's chronical, isn't it?

Like most things.
Here in Portugal, we don't protest, we don't rebel, unlike in Greece or even in the neighbour Spain. We only shrug our shoulders and carry on with the punishment as if nothing.
Sometimes I wonder if Salazar was a dictator chosen by us or if Salazar was a dictator perfectly tailored to our measure.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:33 AM   #157
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On the streets of Greece, it’s now common knowledge among immigrants like Hussein that black clothes are the unofficial uniform of Golden Dawn, or Chrysi Avgi—a kind of cross between Hezbollah and the Tea Party. Since 2008, Golden Dawn supporters have assaulted immigrants with brass knuckles, knives, and batons. There have been nearly 500 attacks this year alone, according to the Migrant Workers Association, some of which have been captured on video and proudly posted on Golden Dawn’s YouTube channel.
But Golden Dawn is not just a gang of radical right-wing thugs. It is now the fourth-largest party in Greek politics. In elections this year, it won 18 of 300 seats in parliament on an explicitly anti-immigrant platform. Its growing constituency includes many ordinary Greeks who fear that waves of impoverished foreigners are draining the state’s dwindling resources and taking their jobs in a country where nearly a quarter of the population is unemployed. And as the country’s economy continues to collapse, Golden Dawn is becoming increasingly entrenched in the mainstream of Greek political life.
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And yet, despite its blatant displays of brutality, Golden Dawn’s approval ratings have climbed by ten points since last May, to 22 percent, according to the Financial Times. If you speak with Greeks, it’s not hard to understand why. People from all across the political spectrum—from teachers to car mechanics to smallbusiness owners—believe that their country has become the scapegoat for a wider crisis not of their own making. In their view, they are double victims: oppressed by northern Europe and overwhelmed by waves of immigrants who bring nothing but problems. Feeling bullied and trapped, the Greek public began to seek others to bully.
The Terrifying Rise Of Greece’s Nazi Party | The New Republic

The fact that its a rising political party in Greece is not a good sign. Greeks have to find other ways to combat their frustration.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:42 AM   #158
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Germany's revenge on the world for the Treaty of Versailles?
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:46 AM   #159
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while I sort od agree that Greece is being scapegoated,
it should be obvious enough it has been living above its means

I guess life isn't fair
that realisation doesn't excuse racist behaviour though
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:24 AM   #160
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What good is living within ones means if ones means are being artificially depressed?
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Old 10-24-2012, 02:24 PM   #161
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Germany's revenge on the world for the Treaty of Versailles?
Are Germans really still bitter over that?
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:54 PM   #162
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Are Germans really still bitter over that?
I wasn't being serious. But there are parallels I my eyes.

That being said, anyone subjected to Versailles would have every right to be bitter. It's just sad that the result of that bitterness was Hitler.
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Old 10-24-2012, 06:58 PM   #163
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I wasn't being serious. But there are parallels I my eyes.
I wasn't so sure, that's why I asked. But yeah, there does seem to be a repeat of history going on.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:29 PM   #164
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Ugh, fascist scum. Even worse is that a lot of them are part of the Greek police force (about 50% of the Greek police force voted for GD, I believe), but that shouldn't be so surprising.

Solidarity to the immigrants.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:51 PM   #165
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Feeling bullied and trapped, the Greek public began to seek others to bully.
And as history has shown us, that has always worked out SO well!

Yeesh. This is not comforting, to say the very least.
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