Tony Scott, wow, courageous, he is my hero.

[deep]

I think he is my hero.

I don't think we will ever know why he made his choice. He left several notes. We all have an exit, or will have an exit. He had an exit plan and followed it.

 

[yolland]

A little context would be nice, please, sir.

And I don't just mean background on who Tony Scott is and how he died, for posters who might not know that.

 

[U2DMfan]

All I heard about it at the time was that he was diagnosed w/ inoperable brain cancer but since I just Googled it, evidently that is false according to his widow?

 

[nathan1977]

Evidently.

 

[deep]

This tragic event has occupied a lot of my mind since I first heard about it. One thing that really keeps bothering me is that he had young children. I can not reconcile that.

But I do believe each of us should have the right to chose how and when our lives end, if it is done in a rational way. In the last several years I have been with loved ones and good friends at the end of their lives. It has not been pleasant, it has been terrible.

Many times I have thought that I want to chose my own exit. I don't have children. I have health issues that are stable now. If they took a turn for the worse. I would rather choose than lose control.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

He's a movie director, directed Top Gun. His brother is Ridley Scott, also a director. And yes his family is denying that he had inoperable brain cancer. Maybe they didn't know, who knows. We don't. He jumped off a bridge in CA.

I've felt suicidal several times in my life and never could go through with it, as much as I wanted to at the times. I don't think suicide is something to make someone a "hero" (seems an odd choice of words under the circumstances) for. Feel sorry for them and wonder whatever drove them to do it, yes. Feel sorry for those they left behind, yes.

 

[nathan1977]

I've felt suicidal several times in my life and never could go through with it, as much as I wanted to at the times. I don't think suicide is something to make someone a "hero" (seems an odd choice of words under the circumstances) for. Feel sorry for them and wonder whatever drove them to do it, yes. Feel sorry for those they left behind, yes.

 

[Pearl]

I've felt suicidal several times in my life and never could go through with it, as much as I wanted to at the times. I don't think suicide is something to make someone a "hero" (seems an odd choice of words under the circumstances) for. Feel sorry for them and wonder whatever drove them to do it, yes. Feel sorry for those they left behind, yes.

I've heard some people suggest that suicide is OK is life is not worth living anymore. I can understand that in the case of the severely ill, like we discussed in the euthanasia thread. But just because life seems unlivable and even pointless doesn't make sense to me. Rather it sounds selfish and myopic. Being suicidal is a sign of a troubled mind, not bravery.

I've also had contemplated suicide in the past. Maybe I just didn't have enough nerve to do it. But even so, there is light at the end of the tunnel - even if you can't see it. That may be a cliched saying, but it is so true.

 

[Irvine511]

i've never encountered suicide in my life, but a few years ago i sat right next to a co-worker who received a phone call with news that her friend (and mother of 3) had just committed suicide.

it seems like just about the worst possible thing you could do to your loved ones.

 

[cobl04]

I've heard some people suggest that suicide is OK is life is not worth living anymore. I can understand that in the case of the severely ill, like we discussed in the euthanasia thread. But just because life seems unlivable and even pointless doesn't make sense to me. Rather it sounds selfish and myopic. Being suicidal is a sign of a troubled mind, not bravery.

it's incredibly selfish.

 

[yolland]

I don't think I'd go along with selfish; often there's not much of a self left of people in suicidal despair.

An aunt and uncle of my husband's, whom we knew relatively well, committed suicide together a few years ago (at home, peacefully--or at least, as peaceful as a suicide could manage to be I guess). They were getting fairly old--he was in his 80s, she was in her 70s--and declining in various ways; neither were gravely ill but he had numerous physical infirmities, and she was in the early stages of dementia. Neither wished to go on, neither wished to live without the other. They gathered their children and grandchildren together beforehand and told them exactly what they were going to do and when--we were told they seemed "elated" at having made their decision. We didn't hear about it until after they died. I don't know what to think about that; I'd had close friends and students kill themselves before, but I'd never heard of discussing it in advance with your children, and can't imagine having had a discussion like that with my own parents, nor having it with my kids. But as far as it goes, better that than hearing that one or both of them died in some impulsive, violent moment of heartrending despair.

 

[Pearl]

I don't think I'd go along with selfish; often there's not much of a self left of people in suicidal despair.

True, there's little sense of self-worth at that point. But its selfish because you're not considering how your suicide will hurt others. Of course, that's because the depression can be so great, you're unable to empathize with anyone.

 

[deep]

An aunt and uncle of my husband's, whom we knew relatively well, committed suicide together a few years ago (at home, peacefully--or at least, as peaceful as a suicide could manage to be I guess). They were getting fairly old--he was in his 80s, she was in her 70s--and declining in various ways; neither were gravely ill but he had numerous physical infirmities, and she was in the early stages of dementia. Neither wished to go on, neither wished to live without the other. They gathered their children and grandchildren together beforehand and told them exactly what they were going to do and when--we were told they seemed "elated" at having made their decision.

that sounds wonderful
I have a lot of respect for them.
But more impressively, the selflessness of their children and grandchildren.

 

[anitram]

True, there's little sense of self-worth at that point. But its selfish because you're not considering how your suicide will hurt others.

Many people kill themselves because they are severely mentally ill (not just depression). My aunt killed herself and she was a paranoid schizophrenic. Three attempts, a success. I don't think it had anything to do with selfishness, I mean this was a person who didn't know what country she was in most of the time, nevermind having the capacity to actively choose a selfish course of action.

 

[deep]

I read that when you posted it before. And I am always a bit uncomfortable when people post personal situations in here. I don't want to offend anyone or be insensitive. I certainly would not do that in person.

But, I will say this person's life may have been a tormented hell. And at last she is at peace. What often times is selfish is not caring about what a suffering person wants because it may not fit our religious or societal beliefs.

A paranoid schizophrenic, how tragic. At least she was lucid enough to know she wanted the pain to end.

 

[cobl04]

My mum's estranged aunty hung herself in the family home and was discovered by her 11-year-old daughter upon coming home from school. I've never been so disgusted in my life.

 

[anitram]

Thanks deep.

The reason I talk about it is because I think it really needs to be out there to be understood. Her brother still tells people she died of a heart attack and he is a medical doctor. A professional who understands mental illness yet is unable to deal with it publicly and is too ashamed to have the stigma of suicide associated with his family.

It is a huge problem in our society, the way we deal with mentally ill people. A good example is homelessness - the majority, maybe even the vast majority of homeless people are mentally ill. Anyone who has volunteered or worked with the homeless - job programs, soup kitchens, etc, would know this to be the case.

 

[Jive Turkey]

My mum's estranged aunty hung herself in the family home and was discovered by her 11-year-old daughter upon coming home from school. I've never been so disgusted in my life.

hanged..... sorry

 

[deep]

My mum's estranged aunty hung herself in the family home and was discovered by her 11-year-old daughter upon coming home from school. I've never been so disgusted in my life.

no compassion for this poor woman?

that same thing happened to one of my best friends, he came home from school and found his mother hanging in the garage. someone told me she had cancer, I never quizzed him on it. Anyways, he and his 3 siblings and managed ok, all college grads, paid off their student loans, all married and had children, own homes etc.

 

[Pearl]

Many people kill themselves because they are severely mentally ill (not just depression). My aunt killed herself and she was a paranoid schizophrenic. Three attempts, a success. I don't think it had anything to do with selfishness, I mean this was a person who didn't know what country she was in most of the time, nevermind having the capacity to actively choose a selfish course of action.

I said depression because my experiences with wanting to end my life was related to deep depression.

This thread has me thinking, even though it brings back painful memories of my depression. Is suicide really selfish? Is it brave?

It really depends on the reasons for suicide. Like anitram's aunt, I wouldn't say she was selfish because she might've desperately wanted to be rid of her illness and suicide was her only way out. As for it being brave, I have to admit hurting yourself to the point of death takes a lot of guts. Saying that might disturb some people, but then I thought that way during my dark days.

I do agree that there needs to be more of an understanding of mental illnesses. There also should be some compassion toward those who are suffering, even though be around them can make some people scared or uncomfortable. It takes a very empathetic person to deal with these people.

 

[deep]

I think a lot of us have gone through depressions and considered suicide. I went through a completely debilitating one that left me unable to function. Went through my savings, and into debt. I considered bankruptcy. I finally got a little better and fought back.

I have talked to a lot of friends that have had bad times and talked about ending it all. I have always done everything I could do to get them through.

I was thinking more in the line of what anitram described. see below

But I do believe each of us should have the right to chose how and when our lives end, if it is done in a rational way.

 

[yolland]

What often times is selfish is not caring about what a suffering person wants because it may not fit our religious or societal beliefs.

Is guilt a selfish emotion?

 

[deep]

I don't remember guilt being an emotion. I think they are Joy, Sadness, Anger, Fear, Love It has been awhile since I had therapy


But I will say,

If I treat someone properly and they kill themselves I would feel no guilt.

If I treat someone poorly and it contributes to them committing suicide I should feel guilt

If I treat someone poorly and they do not commit suicide I should feel guilt.

 

[Axver]

I prefer to not involve myself in discussions like these, but I find contemptible any generalisation that suicide is a selfish or cowardly action. Individual cases? I've no doubt anybody can quickly find a selfish or cowardly suicide. But as a generalisation? I think it's insulting.

 

[Irvine511]

I agree that most people who commit suicide are unable to understand their actions as selfish or not.

That doesn't change the fact that for the survivors suicide is particularly devastating, especially when it's a child or seemingly out of the blue.

 

[yolland]

I don't remember guilt being an emotion. I think they are Joy, Sadness, Anger, Fear, Love It has been awhile since I had therapy


But I will say,

You're right, I think it's technically an affective state, like disgust or pleasure; I was speaking loosely. I more had in mind guilt as a response to someone who's suffering and openly contemplating suicide, though, not to a suicide that's already occurred. It's the response I'd be most wary of in myself to the kinds of scenarios you seem to be invoking, at least if the person was someone I was close to. Not necessarily because it predisposes me to some particular conclusion, just that I'd worry it'd impair my ability in general to reason about how to do right by this person in this situation.

I think there's a lot more to the widely divergent reactions people have to suicides than just getting hung up on some particular piece of received moral wisdom.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I'm inclined to agree with Axver on this one. No doubt it's devastating to those who are left behind. I can't begin to imagine the questions that swirl around in their minds as they try and make some sort of sense of it all.

And, in cases where, say, a criminal kills themselves right before they have to face punishment for their crimes, that sort of thing, I can understand the "selfish" label (in some cases I think it's definitely because the criminal is likely in a horrid mental state as it is, but in other cases I can see where it definitely comes off like a cowardly way to avoid taking responsibility for what they did).

But your average person who does it, anytime I hear about it I just feel sad, of course for the people they left behind, but also for the person themselves. I have never felt that kind of despair (and my heart goes out to all here who have had those moments), so I have no idea what someone who contemplates suicide or commits suicide is thinking in those moments. I can't imagine what it'd be like to feel like there is absolutely no hope of getting out of whatever hole they've found themselves in, how scary that situation must be. I don't know what kind of mental instability is going on. Therefore, it's hard for me to judge them for what they do.

 

[bono_212]

The only suicide I have experienced in my life was from a work-friend. He quit a few months ago and I had not seen him since May or June. A few weeks ago, I found out that he killed himself in a horrific manner. That was hard enough to deal with. Then, it seemed the worst part was that he asked in his note that his parents not have a funeral for him. That hurt most of all because now I have no closure. No understanding of why he did this, and no chance to say good bye.

To me, that hurt. I realize he had problems, or at least I do now, I didn't really then, but it just hurts that he sort of took away that opportunity to say goodbye. If that makes sense.

 

[The Sad Punk]

I prefer to not involve myself in discussions like these, but I find contemptible any generalisation that suicide is a selfish or cowardly action. Individual cases? I've no doubt anybody can quickly find a selfish or cowardly suicide. But as a generalisation? I think it's insulting.

More later, but definitely agree with you here.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Yes you have to be in your "right mind" to be selfish. I understand the gut level, instant reaction that somebody was selfish. But why would anyone ever leave children with that, or anyone else they love? They're not thinking through all of that rationally, they want the pain to end, they don't see any other way out of that pain when they do it. Otherwise no one would do it.

I understand in some ways what it feels like inside when you want to do that. It is a trapped in your head very confused state of affairs. An extremely lonely feeling.