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Old 08-23-2012, 09:32 PM   #16
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My mum's estranged aunty hung herself in the family home and was discovered by her 11-year-old daughter upon coming home from school. I've never been so disgusted in my life.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:36 PM   #17
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Thanks deep.

The reason I talk about it is because I think it really needs to be out there to be understood. Her brother still tells people she died of a heart attack and he is a medical doctor. A professional who understands mental illness yet is unable to deal with it publicly and is too ashamed to have the stigma of suicide associated with his family.

It is a huge problem in our society, the way we deal with mentally ill people. A good example is homelessness - the majority, maybe even the vast majority of homeless people are mentally ill. Anyone who has volunteered or worked with the homeless - job programs, soup kitchens, etc, would know this to be the case.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:43 PM   #18
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My mum's estranged aunty hung herself in the family home and was discovered by her 11-year-old daughter upon coming home from school. I've never been so disgusted in my life.
hanged..... sorry
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:46 PM   #19
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My mum's estranged aunty hung herself in the family home and was discovered by her 11-year-old daughter upon coming home from school. I've never been so disgusted in my life.
no compassion for this poor woman?

that same thing happened to one of my best friends, he came home from school and found his mother hanging in the garage. someone told me she had cancer, I never quizzed him on it. Anyways, he and his 3 siblings and managed ok, all college grads, paid off their student loans, all married and had children, own homes etc.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:50 PM   #20
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Many people kill themselves because they are severely mentally ill (not just depression). My aunt killed herself and she was a paranoid schizophrenic. Three attempts, a success. I don't think it had anything to do with selfishness, I mean this was a person who didn't know what country she was in most of the time, nevermind having the capacity to actively choose a selfish course of action.
I said depression because my experiences with wanting to end my life was related to deep depression.

This thread has me thinking, even though it brings back painful memories of my depression. Is suicide really selfish? Is it brave?

It really depends on the reasons for suicide. Like anitram's aunt, I wouldn't say she was selfish because she might've desperately wanted to be rid of her illness and suicide was her only way out. As for it being brave, I have to admit hurting yourself to the point of death takes a lot of guts. Saying that might disturb some people, but then I thought that way during my dark days.

I do agree that there needs to be more of an understanding of mental illnesses. There also should be some compassion toward those who are suffering, even though be around them can make some people scared or uncomfortable. It takes a very empathetic person to deal with these people.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:19 PM   #21
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I think a lot of us have gone through depressions and considered suicide. I went through a completely debilitating one that left me unable to function. Went through my savings, and into debt. I considered bankruptcy. I finally got a little better and fought back.

I have talked to a lot of friends that have had bad times and talked about ending it all. I have always done everything I could do to get them through.

I was thinking more in the line of what anitram described. see below

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But I do believe each of us should have the right to chose how and when our lives end, if it is done in a rational way.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:31 PM   #22
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What often times is selfish is not caring about what a suffering person wants because it may not fit our religious or societal beliefs.
Is guilt a selfish emotion?
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:37 PM   #23
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I don't remember guilt being an emotion. I think they are Joy, Sadness, Anger, Fear, Love It has been awhile since I had therapy


But I will say,

If I treat someone properly and they kill themselves I would feel no guilt.

If I treat someone poorly and it contributes to them committing suicide I should feel guilt

If I treat someone poorly and they do not commit suicide I should feel guilt.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:48 PM   #24
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I prefer to not involve myself in discussions like these, but I find contemptible any generalisation that suicide is a selfish or cowardly action. Individual cases? I've no doubt anybody can quickly find a selfish or cowardly suicide. But as a generalisation? I think it's insulting.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:58 PM   #25
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I agree that most people who commit suicide are unable to understand their actions as selfish or not.

That doesn't change the fact that for the survivors suicide is particularly devastating, especially when it's a child or seemingly out of the blue.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:59 PM   #26
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I don't remember guilt being an emotion. I think they are Joy, Sadness, Anger, Fear, Love It has been awhile since I had therapy


But I will say,
You're right, I think it's technically an affective state, like disgust or pleasure; I was speaking loosely. I more had in mind guilt as a response to someone who's suffering and openly contemplating suicide, though, not to a suicide that's already occurred. It's the response I'd be most wary of in myself to the kinds of scenarios you seem to be invoking, at least if the person was someone I was close to. Not necessarily because it predisposes me to some particular conclusion, just that I'd worry it'd impair my ability in general to reason about how to do right by this person in this situation.

I think there's a lot more to the widely divergent reactions people have to suicides than just getting hung up on some particular piece of received moral wisdom.
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:52 AM   #27
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I'm inclined to agree with Axver on this one. No doubt it's devastating to those who are left behind. I can't begin to imagine the questions that swirl around in their minds as they try and make some sort of sense of it all.

And, in cases where, say, a criminal kills themselves right before they have to face punishment for their crimes, that sort of thing, I can understand the "selfish" label (in some cases I think it's definitely because the criminal is likely in a horrid mental state as it is, but in other cases I can see where it definitely comes off like a cowardly way to avoid taking responsibility for what they did).

But your average person who does it, anytime I hear about it I just feel sad, of course for the people they left behind, but also for the person themselves. I have never felt that kind of despair (and my heart goes out to all here who have had those moments), so I have no idea what someone who contemplates suicide or commits suicide is thinking in those moments. I can't imagine what it'd be like to feel like there is absolutely no hope of getting out of whatever hole they've found themselves in, how scary that situation must be. I don't know what kind of mental instability is going on. Therefore, it's hard for me to judge them for what they do.
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Old 08-24-2012, 02:14 AM   #28
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The only suicide I have experienced in my life was from a work-friend. He quit a few months ago and I had not seen him since May or June. A few weeks ago, I found out that he killed himself in a horrific manner. That was hard enough to deal with. Then, it seemed the worst part was that he asked in his note that his parents not have a funeral for him. That hurt most of all because now I have no closure. No understanding of why he did this, and no chance to say good bye.

To me, that hurt. I realize he had problems, or at least I do now, I didn't really then, but it just hurts that he sort of took away that opportunity to say goodbye. If that makes sense.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axver
I prefer to not involve myself in discussions like these, but I find contemptible any generalisation that suicide is a selfish or cowardly action. Individual cases? I've no doubt anybody can quickly find a selfish or cowardly suicide. But as a generalisation? I think it's insulting.


More later, but definitely agree with you here.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:13 AM   #30
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Yes you have to be in your "right mind" to be selfish. I understand the gut level, instant reaction that somebody was selfish. But why would anyone ever leave children with that, or anyone else they love? They're not thinking through all of that rationally, they want the pain to end, they don't see any other way out of that pain when they do it. Otherwise no one would do it.

I understand in some ways what it feels like inside when you want to do that. It is a trapped in your head very confused state of affairs. An extremely lonely feeling.
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