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Old 02-20-2011, 08:13 PM   #76
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The GOP doesn't care about the debt; they care about the panic that the debt causes (as long as Democrats are in power).
True nuff. The GOP woke up one morning in January 2009 and decided to start complaining about the debt. They are largely to blame for the debt, it is 80% their doing.

That said, Obama is a servile coward for not ordering the detention, using extreme force in necessary, of at least several dozen Wall Street executives, and I can name the names. Most of these bastards retired on massive pensions. Sequester their assets by edict, throw 'em in Gitmo, give 'em ye olde waterboarding treatment and see what that throws out, could lead to some interesting confessions. If the law doesn't allow it, then change the godamn laws, Bush did it. The Tea Party doesn't complain about the blatant lack of prosecutions of Wall Street bankers, I wonder why.
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Old 02-20-2011, 08:37 PM   #77
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True nuff. The GOP woke up one morning in January 2009 and decided to start complaining about the debt. They are largely to blame for the debt, it is 80% their doing.

That said, Obama is a servile coward for not ordering the detention, using extreme force in necessary, of at least several dozen Wall Street executives, and I can name the names. Most of these bastards retired on massive pensions. Sequester their assets by edict, throw 'em in Gitmo, give 'em ye olde waterboarding treatment and see what that throws out, could lead to some interesting confessions. If the law doesn't allow it, then change the godamn laws, Bush did it. The Tea Party doesn't complain about the blatant lack of prosecutions of Wall Street bankers, I wonder why.


Just felt like I needed to do that after reading this .

Angela
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Old 02-20-2011, 09:07 PM   #78
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Anyway, in summary, Republicans aren't in a position to lecture Democrats about the debt and for me, and I have reservations about excessive union power, but on balance I am on the side of the Wisconsin protestors because they're standing up to the corporatists. They're saying to the oligarchy, you can only push so far before you get a pushback.

Bless you.
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:08 PM   #79
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True nuff. The GOP woke up one morning in January 2009 and decided to start complaining about the debt. They are largely to blame for the debt, it is 80% their doing.

That said, Obama is a servile coward for not ordering the detention, using extreme force in necessary, of at least several dozen Wall Street executives, and I can name the names. Most of these bastards retired on massive pensions. Sequester their assets by edict, throw 'em in Gitmo, give 'em ye olde waterboarding treatment and see what that throws out, could lead to some interesting confessions. If the law doesn't allow it, then change the godamn laws, Bush did it. The Tea Party doesn't complain about the blatant lack of prosecutions of Wall Street bankers, I wonder why.
It is my hope and many other Dems' hope that Obama will kick it into high gear upon re-election, if we're fortunate enough for that to happen.
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Old 02-21-2011, 08:21 AM   #80
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/op...rssnyt&emc=rss

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OP-ED COLUMNIST
Wisconsin Power Play
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: February 20, 2011



Last week, in the face of protest demonstrations against Wisconsin’s new union-busting governor, Scott Walker — demonstrations that continued through the weekend, with huge crowds on Saturday — Representative Paul Ryan made an unintentionally apt comparison: “It’s like Cairo has moved to Madison.”

It wasn’t the smartest thing for Mr. Ryan to say, since he probably didn’t mean to compare Mr. Walker, a fellow Republican, to Hosni Mubarak. Or maybe he did — after all, quite a few prominent conservatives, including Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum, denounced the uprising in Egypt and insist that President Obama should have helped the Mubarak regime suppress it.

In any case, however, Mr. Ryan was more right than he knew. For what’s happening in Wisconsin isn’t about the state budget, despite Mr. Walker’s pretense that he’s just trying to be fiscally responsible. It is, instead, about power. What Mr. Walker and his backers are trying to do is to make Wisconsin — and eventually, America — less of a functioning democracy and more of a third-world-style oligarchy. And that’s why anyone who believes that we need some counterweight to the political power of big money should be on the demonstrators’ side.

Some background: Wisconsin is indeed facing a budget crunch, although its difficulties are less severe than those facing many other states. Revenue has fallen in the face of a weak economy, while stimulus funds, which helped close the gap in 2009 and 2010, have faded away.

In this situation, it makes sense to call for shared sacrifice, including monetary concessions from state workers. And union leaders have signaled that they are, in fact, willing to make such concessions.

But Mr. Walker isn’t interested in making a deal. Partly that’s because he doesn’t want to share the sacrifice: even as he proclaims that Wisconsin faces a terrible fiscal crisis, he has been pushing through tax cuts that make the deficit worse. Mainly, however, he has made it clear that rather than bargaining with workers, he wants to end workers’ ability to bargain.

The bill that has inspired the demonstrations would strip away collective bargaining rights for many of the state’s workers, in effect busting public-employee unions. Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban; it’s as if Mr. Walker were flaunting the political nature of his actions.

Why bust the unions? As I said, it has nothing to do with helping Wisconsin deal with its current fiscal crisis. Nor is it likely to help the state’s budget prospects even in the long run: contrary to what you may have heard, public-sector workers in Wisconsin and elsewhere are paid somewhat less than private-sector workers with comparable qualifications, so there’s not much room for further pay squeezes.

So it’s not about the budget; it’s about the power.

In principle, every American citizen has an equal say in our political process. In practice, of course, some of us are more equal than others. Billionaires can field armies of lobbyists; they can finance think tanks that put the desired spin on policy issues; they can funnel cash to politicians with sympathetic views (as the Koch brothers did in the case of Mr. Walker). On paper, we’re a one-person-one-vote nation; in reality, we’re more than a bit of an oligarchy, in which a handful of wealthy people dominate.

Given this reality, it’s important to have institutions that can act as counterweights to the power of big money. And unions are among the most important of these institutions.

You don’t have to love unions, you don’t have to believe that their policy positions are always right, to recognize that they’re among the few influential players in our political system representing the interests of middle- and working-class Americans, as opposed to the wealthy. Indeed, if America has become more oligarchic and less democratic over the last 30 years — which it has — that’s to an important extent due to the decline of private-sector unions.

And now Mr. Walker and his backers are trying to get rid of public-sector unions, too.

There’s a bitter irony here. The fiscal crisis in Wisconsin, as in other states, was largely caused by the increasing power of America’s oligarchy. After all, it was superwealthy players, not the general public, who pushed for financial deregulation and thereby set the stage for the economic crisis of 2008-9, a crisis whose aftermath is the main reason for the current budget crunch. And now the political right is trying to exploit that very crisis, using it to remove one of the few remaining checks on oligarchic influence.

So will the attack on unions succeed? I don’t know. But anyone who cares about retaining government of the people by the people should hope that it doesn’t.
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Old 02-21-2011, 01:23 PM   #81
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(AP)MADISON, Wis. — Sarah Palin says union members protesting Wisconsin Republicans' plan to help balance the state's budget by cutting collective bargaining rights are taking up "the wrong fight at the wrong time."

Palin weighed in on the debate in a Friday night posting on her Facebook page but didn't indicate whether she would join weekend conservative counter-protests organized by groups including the Tea Party Patriots and Americans for Prosperity.

In the posting addressed to "union brothers and sisters," Palin says Wisconsin taxpayers shouldn't be asked to pay for benefits "that are not sustainable." She says "real solidarity means everyone being willing to sacrifice."
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:47 PM   #82
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after all, quite a few prominent conservatives, including Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum, denounced the uprising in Egypt and insist that President Obama should have helped the Mubarak regime suppress it.
This really should be a red flag to more people than it currently is.

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(AP)MADISON, Wis. — Sarah Palin says union members protesting Wisconsin Republicans' plan to help balance the state's budget by cutting collective bargaining rights are taking up "the wrong fight at the wrong time."
Then do tell, when is the right time, the right fight?

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In the posting addressed to "union brothers and sisters," Palin says Wisconsin taxpayers shouldn't be asked to pay for benefits "that are not sustainable." She says "real solidarity means everyone being willing to sacrifice."
Indeed, we all do need to work together. So when are you going to start sacrificing, Sarah?

And "union brothers and sisters". Uh-huh.

Angela
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Old 02-21-2011, 04:51 PM   #83
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after all, quite a few prominent conservatives, including Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum, denounced the uprising in Egypt and insist that President Obama should have helped the Mubarak regime suppress it.
"Because he was still our bastard!"
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Old 02-21-2011, 05:15 PM   #84
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In the posting addressed to "union brothers and sisters," Palin says Wisconsin taxpayers shouldn't be asked to pay for benefits "that are not sustainable." She says "real solidarity means everyone being willing to sacrifice."
That's right, just keep reminding the little people that this a fight between tax payers and public workers.

As long as middle and working class people are fighting amongst themselves, the rich win.

Tragically, it will probably work. In which case I will root for a general strike.
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Old 02-21-2011, 05:23 PM   #85
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So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
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Old 02-21-2011, 05:27 PM   #86
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If the people of Wis. could vote on this issue at least 60% would side with the GOP.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:04 PM   #87
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So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
He's right. Guys this needs to be at the top of our agenda at tonight's meeting of All the Nations Democrats and Left Leaners.

Edit: FYI, I won't be there tonight as it conflicts with my meeting with The Black Community.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:06 PM   #88
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So the protesters have no credibility because it might just be about more than one thing?

Come on.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:20 PM   #89
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So what is it, Democrats? Is WI having budget problems or not? Paul Krugman says yes, Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz say no. Half the protesters say yes, half say no. Can you all at least get your story straight so you have some credibility?
Yes, so shocking that there'd be misinformation floating around, considering the despicable current state of our mainstream media.

The state is having budget issues...now. Prior to Walker taking office? Not so much. So, the issue becomes why exactly did he want there to be a budget shortfall? Oh, perhaps it's to pick a fight with workers over something that has nothing to do with the budget. Collective bargaining is not a budget issue, period.

The state's fiscal bureau themselves attributed over half of the current shortfall directly to implementations Walker put into place after taking office.

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Our analysis indicates that for the three-year period, aggregate, general fund tax collections will be $202.8 million lower than those reflected in the November/December reports. More than half of the lower estimate ($117.2 million) is due to the impact of Special Session Senate Bill 2 (health savings accounts), Assembly Bill 3 (tax deductions/credits for relocated businesses), and Assembly Bill 7 (tax exclusion for new employees).
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:28 PM   #90
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Also, I just heard on Ed Schultz's radio show and interview with Mary Bell, leader of the Wisconsin Education Council. She said that they have told Gov.Walker that they would gladly concede all monetary issues and would willingly sacrifice that, however he must take collective bargaining off the table. Did he? No.

That pretty much sums up the motives here. IMO. They want to bust the union permanently and take away the rights of workers forever. This has nothing to do with money. They want you to think that it does.
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