Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

[redhill]

you have absolutely nothing either way that shows if she was lying or not. you literally just decided that she *must* be lying - case closed - based on nothing more than some conjecture.



yes i'm sure you stand against all liars everywhere on the internet with the same virulence and aggression with which you have gone after the women in this thread.



she most certainly DID NOT do this until several posts after you did it to her first.

post #543:




post #549:



bit of a gap there, bud...but we all know how you like to turn yourself into a martyr and play the victim all the time so not surprising at all.

There's so much BS in this post that it's hard to know where to start. She made that insinuation in a much earlier post. She was also disingenuous about my earlier posts (that's a fact).

I never "went after women". I simply mentioned a double standard that no one seems to want to admit exists.

 

[redhill]

You called anitram dishonest because she didn’t actually get painfully grabbed in the crotch every night.

She never claimed she did.

"it's interesting to me that neither he nor those agreeing with the spirit of his posts seemed to take a moment to consider that he was all hot and bothered over being sexually assaulted TWICE, in drunken bar scenarios. Like, that was my night every night at a bar in college. Before midnight. "

 

[anitram]

"it's interesting to me that neither he nor those agreeing with the spirit of his posts seemed to take a moment to consider that he was all hot and bothered over being sexually assaulted TWICE, in drunken bar scenarios. Like, that was my night every night at a bar in college. Before midnight. "

Wow you are something else.

Where did I say this caused intense pain??!! And why is THAT the standard?

Also in the interest of being clear I meant the nights at the bar when I was AT the bar. Not every day of the week (I wish), but your typical weeknight drunken college drinking.

 

[Diemen]

"it's interesting to me that neither he nor those agreeing with the spirit of his posts seemed to take a moment to consider that he was all hot and bothered over being sexually assaulted TWICE, in drunken bar scenarios. Like, that was my night every night at a bar in college. Before midnight. "

Do you think this is vindication for you? It is clearly not.

She claims that sexual assault was a regular thing for her. NOWHERE does she say or even imply that she had the exact same type of sexual assault as you happen to her every night. That is entirely your own mischaracterization of her words.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

 

[Nick66]

The $ is good, the hours are bad. The clients do all pay and are sophisticated, though often assholes. I did always find it more collegial though than my litigation (whether criminal or civil) peers did. It seemed to me like litigation really does breed an adversarial spirit which often made them actually dislike the other side's counsel. On the corporate side, you're all basically there to make rich people richer, nobody hates anybody so long as everybody is profiting. But that's just my somewhat cynical view.

Nah, we all got along pretty well actually.

Don't get me wrong, in court the PD or private defense attorneys and I would go at it pretty fiercely...even shouting at each other a few occasions. It could get intense.

But that was all just in the courtroom and part of the job. They had to zealously defend their client and I had to represent the state. We both had jobs to do. One second we'd be shouting at each other and then the judge would have a recess and we'd be shooting it talking about our plans for the weekend. And at the end of the day more times than not we'd all get a beer together. The PD's were really good sports usually, because they had the tougher job than I with less pay and clients who lied to them all day. But few people took courtroom arguments personally, no matter how heated they got, and we left them in the courtroom. To do otherwise would just be lame and unprofessional.

Occasionally you'd get really zealous types, but eventually they mellowed out or just didn't last. The only time anything became an issue outside the courtroom is if someone lied to you or did something unethical.

Also in the interest of being clear I meant the nights at the bar when I was AT the bar. Not every day of the week (I wish), but your typical weeknight drunken college drinking.

You mean you weren't actually AT a bar seven nights a week drinking?

Your uni experience was much different than mine.

 

[Hewson]

"it's interesting to me that neither he nor those agreeing with the spirit of his posts seemed to take a moment to consider that he was all hot and bothered over being sexually assaulted TWICE, in drunken bar scenarios. Like, that was my night every night at a bar in college. Before midnight. "

Dude, you just proved that you embellished what she said for the sake of your own argument, nicely done.

 

[redhill]

Wow you are something else.

Where did I say this caused intense pain??!! And why is THAT the standard?

Also in the interest of being clear I meant the nights at the bar when I was AT the bar. Not every day of the week (I wish), but your typical weeknight drunken college drinking.

I think it's reasonable to compare like to like and assumed that was what you were doing. It wasn't my intent to mischaracterize or minimize your experiences and I'm sorry if I unintentionally did that in the discourse.

On that note, will you be apologizing to me for the MRA insinuations, clearly mischaracterizing my earlier posts, or belittling my experiences being sexually assaulted?

Or are we still holding up double standards?

I make one unintentional error and my feet are held to the fire. Yet you do three fucked up things intentionally and it's all good? I don't think so.

My initial point wound up being proved. Not only are there double standards in place, we can't even talk about them without fear of character attacks.

 

[BVS]

So what was that you were saying Kiwilad? Let me introduce you to the real redhill...

 

[mama cass]

"it's interesting to me that neither he nor those agreeing with the spirit of his posts seemed to take a moment to consider that he was all hot and bothered over being sexually assaulted TWICE, in drunken bar scenarios. Like, that was my night every night at a bar in college. Before midnight. "

that does not specifically mention crotch grabbing though... it's pretty clear what anitram is saying...

pretty much every night out as a student i would think about my safety and have a "strategy" to stay safe, if i was ever on my own walking thru town late at night - heck even during the day in Paris! i was a target when i first arrived in Paris, young, naive, too trusting and smiley in general and always returning eye contact, and it got me a lot of unwanted attention, and i soon learned that it was like a "sport" and Parisian women had to be tough and it didn't matter if you were rude to a man who was being out of line - i pretty much learnt to scowl constantly when out and about on my own (the "fuck-off-and-don't-even-think-about-it face") and always move fast and with purpose, ALWAYS avoid eye contact and ALWAYS be rude to or ignore strange men - it's a horrible way to feel you have to behave like this, but it's for self-preservation... i have absolutely no qualms about offending men i don't know who might think i'm rude when i reject their advances... it soon helped me feel empowered and that it was ok to reject unwanted attention, strongly... these are not one-off things, women have to think about this every day, how to keep themselves safe in their day to day... jeesus, when i was young, i would catch the bus home late at night and sprint home down the middle of the road (was once nearly grabbed by a weirdo as i walked along the pavement past a driveway on my way home alone from the school bus as a child - so as a teenager was wary about dark driveways at night and always ran home in the middle of the street, never on the pavement) i almost laugh about these things as i have survived and avoided any close shaves i have had over the years but i guess it's pretty fucked up that girls have to be "on guard" the whole time... nothing ever caused me "pain" but it does fuck with your head and put you constantly on the edge with worry

anitram i'm sorry to hear you had so much hassle - that is horrible! my own experience is pretty different - when i was a student, many of my best friends were boys, and when we were out and about in a group i guess i felt pretty secure in my crowd of friends (obviously alone it was different, and i would be "on my guard")... bless them, the one time i did have my ass grabbed, we were all walking thru town late one night after a night out, and i went to give the guy a verbal pounding but one of my darling lad friends steered me away by my shoulders and told me to keep walking with the others (really rough area of Paris), and he went and put his arm round the guy's shoulders, walked him away from me back into the bar, and he basically schooled him gently on how girls really don't appreciate that, and literally talked to him for about 15 min and the guy bought him a beer haha... i will never forget what he did for me and i owe a lot to having the boys around as maybe they were a deterrent, and they did take care of me and the other girls (these are just really good mates, not boys who we were in relationships with)... another time, i was walking thru Paris, and a guy follows me and starts walking next to me and puts his arm round my shoulder walking alongside of me, it was daylight but i got really upset, and shrugged his arm off me and told him to get lost, and then he said he was only trying to be "nice", and i told him he wasn't be nice and you don't go around doing that to women, and he actually apologised and said he didn't mean any harm, and left me alone... i guess maybe it could have gone badly though and i'm thankful it didn't... have had worse - seeing as we're spilling - me and a girl friend were in a metro carriage on our own with just one guy sitting on the other side of the aisle from us and it suddenly dawned on us he was actually wanking - thankfully the train had just pulled up at a station and we looked at each other in horror and jumped off the train, he actually stumbled to his feet lurching after us but his pants were falling down and he couldn't move fast enough, lol asshole... but we were both incredibly shaken after that jeesus...

sorry for all the gory details, but as we're sharing...

there was a really good thread on twitter about this kind of thing (then made into an article in The Independent), about what women face day to day - will find it and post it...

https://www.indy100.com/article/wom...-harassment-twitter-viral-explanation-8161801

 

[Nick66]

Mama Cass, I'm really glad you're here, if for no other reason than it means I don't have wordiest posts.

 

[mama cass]

Mama Cass, I'm really glad you're here, if for no other reason than it means I don't have wordiest posts.

oh shit sorry! i have a terrible problem with verbal diarrhoea!

 

[Nick66]

No need to apologise, I was just taking the piss. I can be just as bad.

And you've made a lot of really good points in this thread!

 

[redhill]

Do you think this is vindication for you? It is clearly not.

She claims that sexual assault was a regular thing for her. NOWHERE does she say or even imply that she had the exact same type of sexual assault as you happen to her every night. That is entirely your own mischaracterization of her words.

So will you be calling out anitram for the MRA insinuations, clearly mischaracterizing my earlier posts, or belittling my experiences being sexually assaulted?

Or is it double standard time?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

So redhill, if you've gone through and experienced all of this...

Beyond that, I've had a lot of other experiences I didn't mention. I had a female babysitter when I was 8 years old repeatedly try to get me to touch her private parts (above and below) by placing coins in those places and trying to coerce me to get them. I've had a complete stranger walk up and smack my butt a couple of times in my 20's (once in Wal-Mart). I was dating a girl who came over smashed one night (I was working on the computer when she showed up unannounced) and she stripped and demanded that I immediately have sex with her. I wasn't in the mood as she was so inebriated and I was working. She became wildly agitated when I refused and held a grudge forever after that. She tried to destroy my reputation around town by making false claims and telling people that the exact opposite happened. I had a scorned woman physically attack me because I broke up with her...knowing full well that she could get away with it. I was also repeatedly sexually harassed at work by my manager. I could go on if you like...

Oh, and I was roofied by a girl once and was also held down by a (very large) man at a party who told me that "he could rape me right now if he wanted to." I was being intimate with a girl I was dating when he rushed in the room and jumped on me. It was a harrowing experience and luckily I was able to get him off me. Shall I go on?

...along with being sexually assaulted twice at a bar throughout your life, why exactly does anitram stating she'd had multiple experiences of herself and her friends being harassed or assaulted on a regular basis when she'd go out to bars and whatnot sound so unbelievable to you?

The point is that I wasn't getting all "hot and bothered" over two assaults....as there are a lot of other incidents I could have relayed.

So why didn't you? Especially since some of the stories you've told about what you've been through sound particularly troubling (a babysitter trying to get you, as a kid, to touch their private parts, for instance). I think those would be valid topics worth bringing up in this thread, and would certainly fit into the broader discussion of this topic.

What the hell...? Yeah I really don't like calling someone a liar about their personal experiences. But it does mirror what is done to people who are harassed or assaulted in society at large.

Mmhm. And it explains why so many people are hesitant to come forward with their stories, too. Whether they report them right away or years later, they always get questioned and doubted, and then those same people who question and doubt them have the nerve to turn around and ask, "Why didn't they just say something/report it?" when there is concrete evidence backing up their claims, Like, hi, geniuses, do you not even realize you've just answered your own question with your behavior.

So much arguing in here. I thought this was supposed to be an echo chamber.

Heh. Seriously.

 

[corianderstem]

 

[DaveC]

edit: nvm

 

[redhill]

You've led quite the life.

Serious question: when you were roofied, what did the girl do/hope to do. Can a guy who is roofied and passed out get "excited" so the female can take advantage?

I have no idea. This was at a small gathering a number of years ago at the end of the night. She roofied me and took my credit card when I was passed out. I don't think she did anything sexually but I'm not entirely sure. It's a pretty horrible experience in any case.

 

[Hewson]

I have no idea. This was at a small gathering a number of years ago at the end of the night. She roofied me and took my credit card when I was passed out. I don't think she did anything sexually but I'm not entirely sure. It's a pretty horrible experience in any case.

Well that seems to be the answer, she did it to rob you.
Which makes more sense, roofies as a means of sexual assault on a man (by a woman) doesn't seem like it would make sense.

 

[Nick66]

Ah, the classics.

 

[redhill]

So redhill, if you've gone through and experienced all of this...
...along with being sexually assaulted twice at a bar throughout your life, why exactly does anitram stating she'd had multiple experiences of herself and her friends being harassed or assaulted on a regular basis when she'd go out to bars and whatnot sound so unbelievable to you?

I thought she was comparing like to like. I've been grabbed at and groped and it's a much different experience than being grabbed in the crotch in a way that causes intense pain. I didn't think any reasonable person would liken the two but that's not to minimize her experiences. So I thought she was indicating that it had happened every night at the bar before midnight (which she stated and then later modified). It was a mistake on my part based on a misunderstanding of communication.

So why didn't you? Especially since some of the stories you've told about what you've been through sound particularly troubling (a babysitter trying to get you, as a kid, to touch their private parts, for instance). I think those would be valid topics worth bringing up in this thread, and would certainly fit into the broader discussion of this topic.

I was trying to be as level-headed as possible and many of the experiences I mentioned were deeply personal. Frankly, I wish I hadn't shared them as they were later belittled which appears to be condoned depending upon the gender of the person. I know it's just easier to accuse me of having a persecution complex than to deal with the truth.

Mmhm. And it explains why so many people are hesitant to come forward with their stories, too. Whether they report them right away or years later, they always get questioned and doubted, and then those same people who question and doubt them have the nerve to turn around and ask, "Why didn't they just say something/report it?" when there is concrete evidence backing up their claims, Like, hi, geniuses, do you not even realize you've just answered your own question with your behavior.

Yea, my experiences were just belittled / called into question in this thread and it is a lousy feeling.

The irony is that the initial point I was trying to make has been proven in this very thread.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

No need to apologise, I was just taking the piss. I can be just as bad.

And you've made a lot of really good points in this thread!

Now try responding to both of you at the same time.

 

[Nick66]

LOL...I'll regularly be going back and forth with 3-4 people when I venture into FYM.

Focus. Do or do not. There is no try.

 

[kiwilad]

I am not surprised, though completely disgusted by women's tales of sexual harassment and assault, like those anitram and mama shared.
I'm always trying to solve problems, rather than just talk about them, and that seems to piss people off in here. But with this i don't know how you solve it.
I was that guy, many times, groping girls in bars when we were young. All us guys were. I don't say this happily! Thing is, a good amount of the time it 'worked'. You'd end up snogging on the dancefloor all night, or going home with them. And that was why we'd gone out. Cause we were horny young guys who felt embarrassed by being single and frustrated at how uninterested girls were in us. Then on the weekend we'd get smashed, go in to town, and try to get girls to like us.
And horrifically what we were doing to 'get girls to like us' was assaulting them. I do get how fucked up that is and I am ashamed.
But it seemed everyone was doing it. The girls too. Not that I ever complained but I was always getting groped. And other guys were groping girls. And girls would look at the person responsible and seem to decide whether to say 'fuck off' or dance with them.
It's like it was an accepted behavior.
I know a lot of times I'd get told to fuck off by a girl, then a minute later a better looking guy would do the same thing to the same girl and get a very different reaction.
And same with me. If i was groped by a girl (or guy) I'd decide whether I wanted to take that further or not. It only felt like harassment when the person didn't take no for an answer.

And I'm talking purely about drunken nights at bars. Not dodgy workplace scumbags.

I don't know what the intent is here. Are we saying to stop all that gropey drunken behavior altogether? Or to empower women and teach men that one word is all that is needed to say and mean no, and have it respected?
Sober and old, as i am now, i think stopping it altogether sounds best. A massive culture shift.
But I'm not sure all the 18 year olds would agree. Many might. And many might not. Cause as horrible as it is, it seems to be a recognized part of the human mating ritual.

I dunno.

 

[mama cass]

Now try responding to both of you at the same time.

here's something to keep you going then

right, I’ve had a bit of time to look back over this thread; here’s a summary of my arguments:

1. I point out that there are huge cultural differences between French feminists and US feminists, and the balance lies somewhere in the middle

2. MoonlitAngel describes how women here in the States are often raised to believe they must be polite when dealing with men, and I respond by my experience in France, how there isn’t the same type of systemic submission, and how it’s ok to strongly rebuff unwanted attention, and talk about liberte, egalite, fraternite being enshrined in our constitution and drummed into kids throughout their education

3. cori also backs up MoonlitAngel’s views, talking about social "training", how men are seen as the initiators, women have been "taught" to not want sex, to always be polite, let men down gently, and I again share how different these attitudes to sex are in France

4. Then suddenly, Iron Yuppie and yourself misunderstand this and think I am making out France to be some kind of utopia, when I am simply pointing out cultural differences in terms of sex (and women having no problem telling a guy to get lost), and talking about basic French principles underlying these differences.

5. And then it kicks off into a bazillion other areas, race, religion, and again I explain the differences in France in these respects (assimilation, more clearly later on, and separation of church and state), and then you claim France is no different to the UK and the US, and seem to assume I think racism, sexism, homophobia etc. miraculously don’t exist here… I then point out loads of cultural and social differences between France and the UK, and talk about hate speech laws, especially with respect to racism (btw, if Trump was a French candidate, he would not have been allowed to get away with what he did – he would have had so many charges against him during his campaign for his hate speech – Le Pen (though equally dreadful) is actually pretty careful with the language she uses, exactly for this reason, and she dresses up her hateful views with carefully chosen language to get round our hate speech laws (although sometimes she loses control and gets gonged LOL)

Nowhere did I claim that these things don’t exist or never happen in France, just that we have strict laws to protect us when they do and which also can serve as a deterrent – you literally misread my posts, or didn’t actually bother reading them (haha which i understand lol, but i don't appreciate being accused of something i didn't do)…

other differences: when our presidents have mistresses, it's never really been a big deal - mitterand had a second family, hollande used to hop on a scooter to visit his mistress - no-one really bats an eyelid about those things here, not like how the Clinton/ Lewinski thing was handled in the US - there are definitely different attitudes between our countries - not saying one is better than the other, but just different...

heck we also can't display swastikas here - that is also an offence which carries heavy penalties, unlike the US

 

[kiwilad]

So what was that you were saying Kiwilad? Let me introduce you to the real redhill...

Yeah well I don't think he's winning, but I do think he's being unfairly mischaracterized.
Or maybe not. I don't know the history.
But it seems anitram shot some fairly nasty and unfair comments his way that no one is jumping on, while he's being massacred and largely mischaracterized.

For the record, I doubt men who tell of experiences like redhill's (mine are similar) ever feel much or any danger in those experiences. I've always felt complete power in most of those moments, other than with the massive man and the workplace incident.
Simply because I am (I was...) a fairly athletic chap who knew i was safe in a tussle.

I know that's generally the opposite of women's experiences. I know drawing equivalence is ridiculous. I know there's a fucking epidemic of violence, harassment and intimidation by men towards women.
And it needs to stop.

I honestly just thought adding more experiences and contexts was healthy. Perhaps it isn't. And perhaps redhill has a deserved reputation for martrydom and belligerence. But i think based on what he's said on this thread he's being unfairly picked on.

 

[anitram]

redhill,
I don't have the time or the inclination right now to go back and forth with you as you obviously have a chip on your shoulder and I am dealing with a failing placenta and an issue of medical emergency right now so you don't rank on my list of priorities. I haven't been able to follow the thread as closely as I'm only on my phone to pass the time between hospital consults all day.

I have no issue apologizing to you for suggesting that you were inflating your # of incidents as time went on. That was not out of malice on my part but because in your first or second post on the topic you had explicitly stated that you had been assaulted twice and then described those incidents in great detail. Only when person after person started to suggest that this is much more common for women did you bring up new experiences beyond these two, which did seem oddly calculated to me at the time and I thought, why wouldn't a person simply have said they'd been sexually assaulted several times throughout their life if that were the case. But I appreciate that if you felt they were too personal and were hoping not to go into them that you'd have chosen to hold them back, fair enough, you certainly don't owe anybody a play-by-play.

On the other hand I will certainly not apologize for the MRA comments. I did not say you were a MRA member of some organization, what I said is that your posts are "MRA-tinged" and I 100% stand by that. Several things you have asserted which do not have a basis in statistical reality, are rampant among the MRA crowd. I understand from your posts that you say that you're not familiar with MRAs, but I would encourage you to do some research and see why some of the things you have said are highly problematic and suggest that rational discourse cannot be had with you on this topic. Namely (and everything quoted is verbatim from your posts),

1. The notion that women are "generally able" to assault men "without consequences" and that "women can generally get away with blatant sexual assault while men get skewered simply for being accused of it."

Where is the data that bears this out? If you look at the rates of sexual assault experienced by women compared to men it is an enormous difference. There are many different studies out there supporting this and I'm not aware of a single compelling one that states that men are sexually assaulted with nearly the same frequency as women with the noted exception of transgender men, who, depending on the specific set of data, may or may not be even worse off statistically than women when it comes to this. Show us the data that supports this notion that women are free to assault men without consequences.

2. The notion that women are "generally able to...make false claims that they have been assaulted or worse" and that "women have incredible power to make false claims and get away with assault."

This is a standard MRA talking point which not only does not have bearing in reality as Nick pointed out, but has been statistically debunked. You can read more here (http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf), but to sum it up for you the statistics based on different studies range somewhere between 2-8% of all assaults reported as being false. Now keep in mind the VERY high rate of unreported assaults by women, and particularly of rapes, for a host of reasons and the reality is that the 2-8% is an inflated figure. That is not to say that false reports are not problematic or that they shouldn't be prosecuted and dealt with very seriously, but the idea that women are "generally able" and have "incredible power" (no, the criminal standard is not lower for women) to make false reports is an MRA talking point and nothing more. If you have come to this belief based on anecdotal experience, accept that it is just that - anecdotal - and not based in fact.

3. Your assertion: "Are you telling me that most women have been grabbed in the crotch in a public place multiple times in their life? And that they would have very little recourse if it did happen? They could call the police and have the man immediately arrested without question."

That's totally absurd and again is an MRA talking point that has been thoroughly debunked. It should be very easy for you to look up the piles upon piles of data supporting this, and you also have a criminal prosecutor on this page telling you that you're wrong about arrests and prosecutions but you keep repeating this lie. Just one source below...so much for having the man immediately arrested without question (and as a bonus I included only the rape claims which should definitely have a 100% "without question" arrest rate if you claim that simple assaults do). Also as an aside, generally we have fairly robust constitutional rights which prevent the police from arresting people "immediately" and "without question" so unless you live in some sort of police state, that's just a really strange claim to double down on.

Additionally you have a great post by kiwilad just telling you very honestly that he was one of the guys who would grope on the dance floor and that everybody did it and that it happened all the time. Just as I had told you as well. I didn't say I'd walk into a bar and be gang raped, for God's sake, just that in that crowded, drunken environment, groping and crotch grabbing were the absolute expected norm and not something strange. And I even said that often it would be guys I was otherwise friends or friendly with - whom I didn't find threatening - but who nevertheless felt it was ok, at least in that setting, to behave the way kiwilad is describing. You still think we're all making it up? Is kiwilad lying as well? And what does he have to gain by admitting he was the one doing it?

 

[mama cass]

I am dealing with a failing placenta and an issue of medical emergency right now so you don't rank on my list of priorities.

whoa take care of yourself there, hope everything is ok! yes this place is definitely insignificant in comparison!

 

[kiwilad]

Yeah agreed. Being with my wife as she gave birth confirmed that all mums are superheroes and men really do get it disproportionately easy.
You're a frigging superhero anitram (and all the mums on this thread)

 

[redhill]

redhill,
I don't have the time or the inclination right now to go back and forth with you as you obviously have a chip on your shoulder and I am dealing with a failing placenta and an issue of medical emergency right now so you don't rank on my list of priorities. I haven't been able to follow the thread as closely as I'm only on my phone to pass the time between hospital consults all day.

You've cut me off at the knees in the first paragraph. Any further communication could be construed as my burdening you at a time of medical emergency. I'm certainly not going to tell you how to spend your time but I would prefer not to communicate at the moment if you're dealing with such issues.

I also have to wonder why you're engaging with me at all if (as you state) you don't have the inclination to allow me to respond. Where am I supposed to go from there? I may touch on some of these issues at a later time by posting directly in the thread.

I sincerely hope things go well for you today and in the future and appreciate and accept your apology.

Take care, please.