Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

[corianderstem]

whoa didn't register that bit, nope, definitely a cultural thing... "taught not to want sex"?
those damn puritans...

Oh, for sure. Women being "allowed" to have sexual feelings, and to like sex is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of things.

Good girls don't!
Girls keep their legs together!
Girls must stay pure!
Girls have to do x
Girls have to do y

AD FUCKING NAUSEUM.

 

[mama cass]

Oh, for sure. Women being "allowed" to have sexual feelings, and to like sex is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of things.

Good girls don't!
Girls keep their legs together!
Girls must stay pure!
Girls have to do x
Girls have to do y

AD FUCKING NAUSEUM.

must have its roots in religion, surely? especially the submission issue... which is maddening as the supposed "christians" appear to live as they please but just want to inflict their rules on everyone else

(i only ever experienced these attitudes in a limited church context in the past, in the UK, which i strongly rejected - thought i was pretty liberated as a Brit, but then i came to France and feel quite the prude in comparison - it's nice though, to feel you can just embrace it, celebrate it, be pragmatic about it, and not be judged or frowned upon in society)

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Girls just wanna have fun

 

[iron yuppie]

(i only ever experienced these attitudes in a limited church context in the past, in the UK, which i strongly rejected - thought i was pretty liberated as a Brit, but then i came to France and feel quite the prude in comparison - it's nice though, to feel you can just embrace it, celebrate it, be pragmatic about it, and not be judged or frowned upon in society)

I don't know if you're meaning to do this, but you are depicting France as some kind of egalitarian utopia, which even a quick glance at the news will reveal is not the case. It's great you appreciate the culture, but I don't think it's helpful to place any one country on a pedestal like this.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I don't know if you're meaning to do this, but you are depicting France as some kind of egalitarian utopia, which even a quick glance at the news will reveal is not the case. It's great you appreciate the culture, but I don't think it's helpful to place any one country on a pedestal like this.

This I entirely agree with.

Having done my time in France, in Italy, and in the U.K., I would say all of those plus the US are more or less the same.

I only notice it because I sat and watched the criticisms of the US, only to see a lot of the same shit elsewhere. We live in a globalized world. It's only policy that's genuinely different (healthcare, guns, etc.).

 

[mama cass]

I don't know if you're meaning to do this, but you are depicting France as some kind of egalitarian utopia, which even a quick glance at the news will reveal is not the case. It's great you appreciate the culture, but I don't think it's helpful to place any one country on a pedestal like this.

of course it's not a utopia, but i think it's awesome that, as a country, it embraces equality as one of its key values (with liberty, fraternity), and these values are enshrined in its constitution, taught in schools, and are the foundations of society... from my own experience, i can only fairly compare it with Britain, so discovering France and what it stands for as a country has been a revelation... i've spent the past few months brushing up on my French history and culture, so that's why it's so fresh in my mind, and i have to say it's been really nice and quite inspiring delving into all this stuff again (been years and years), it's so different from my experience of the UK, and come on, when France drew up its declaration of human rights in the 1700s what was your country doing? i think France deserves to be on a pedestal

 

[mama cass]

This I entirely agree with.

Having done my time in France, in Italy, and in the U.K., I would say all of those plus the US are more or less the same.

I only notice it because I sat and watched the criticisms of the US, only to see a lot of the same shit elsewhere. We live in a globalized world. It's only policy that's genuinely different (healthcare, guns, etc.).

pah you were only here for a few months - it's an acquired taste - it has literally taken me over 20 years to feel this way

and for a start, France and the UK are chalk and cheese...

 

[LuckyNumber7]

of course it's not a utopia, but i think it's awesome that, as a country, it embraces equality as one of its key values (with liberty, fraternity), and these values are enshrined in its constitution, taught in schools, and are the foundations of society... from my own experience, i can only fairly compare it with Britain, so discovering France and what it stands for as a country has been a revelation... i've spent the past few months brushing up on my French history and culture, so that's why it's so fresh in my mind, and i have to say it's been really nice and quite inspiring delving into all this stuff again (been years and years), it's so different from my experience of the UK, and come on, when France drew up its declaration of human rights in the 1700s what was your country doing? i think France deserves to be on a pedestal

Well the US was a bunch of British, Spanish, and French colonies in the 1700s... so...

You do seem to be joining in on the dick measuring competition though. Why does France being first to the lunch hundreds of years ago matter right now? As it stands, France still has the same issues of inequality in society as the US does. Racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia are all still prevalent there.

 

[iron yuppie]

of course it's not a utopia, but i think it's awesome that, as a country, it embraces equality as one of its key values (with liberty, fraternity), and these values are enshrined in its constitution, taught in schools, and are the foundations of society

It's one thing to embrace it in a constitution, quite another to enact or realize it. France has demonstrable equity issues when it comes to gender, race, and religion, whether you measure it by economic data or social polling. And all of this has been in the news in the recent past.

The inequity is not at the level of the United States, I'll freely admit that, but it certainly does exist.

 

[mama cass]

on a more serious note though - everyone has a chance here, to free education, from primary to postgrad, based purely on merit (so no student debt) universal healthcare, a social safety net, affordable housing, state housing, help with rent for low incomes and students... that alone is pretty incredible compared with many other countries...

 

[mama cass]

It's one thing to embrace it in a constitution, quite another to enact or realize it. France has demonstrable equity issues when it comes to gender, race, and religion, whether you measure it by economic data or social polling. And all of this has been in the news in the recent past.

The inequity is not at the level of the United States, I'll freely admit that, but it certainly does exist.

no, religion is out of the picture as it is separate from the state...

race is handled very differently here, compared to say the UK - here in France, wherever you were born, whatever colour or ethnicity you are, if you're French, you're French - as a second-generation immigrant in the UK, i can tell you that this was certainly not the case in the UK - if you looked different, you certainly weren't perceived as British... you should check out James Baldwin's documentary I Am Not Your Negro, as it has interesting insight into the differences between France and the US in that respect...

anyway, the conversation here was about women and sexuality, and the differences between perceptions in France and the US, and i was merely describing how these values are part of the fabric of French society, and talking about our cultural differences in this respect

whether these values are always achieved or not, in an imperfect society, they're at least something amazing to aspire to, no?

also, am still incredibly relieved that our version of Trump didn't get in, in last year's elections, or things would be pretty devastating here right now, so nothing wrong with appreciating something good while it lasts...

 

[mama cass]

Racism, sexism, xenophobia, and homophobia are all still prevalent there.

among assholes, sure, but these things are not tolerated and are completely unacceptable - we have strict laws against all of these things, even against racist, sexist, xenophobic, and homophobic language (which is where we clash with the US interpretation of freedom of speech for instance)

ps- i was taking the piss with my "what was your country doing" comment btw

anyway, this is off-topic, so stop making stoopid comments and making me have to educate you

 

[anitram]

race is handled very differently here, compared to say the UK - here in France, wherever you were born, whatever colour or ethnicity you are, if you're French, you're French - as a second-generation immigrant in the UK, i can tell you that this was certainly not the case in the UK - if you looked different, you certainly weren't perceived as British... you should check out James Baldwin's documentary I Am Not Your Negro, as it has interesting insight into the differences between France and the US in that respect...

With all due respect, this is a lot of theoretical talk and does not bear out in reality necessarily. Go to the suburbs/exurbs of Paris and ask the youth of Algerian and Moroccan descent how "French" they are made to feel by white Francophones or how French they feel given the fact they live in largely ghettoized slums. Or let's take a look at astonishingly high and record-breaking numbers of Jews emigrating from France due to fairly widespread anti-semitism which is on the rise. And no, I don't think that French feminists are somehow the paragon of truth here either.

A much worse party than the Republicans led by Trump could easily have been elected in France AND has solid backing of a significant minority. What the French liberte, egalite, fraternite stands for in theory is all nice and great but you could write similarly beautiful-sounding things about the American constitution yet here we are.

 

[mama cass]

With all due respect, this is a lot of theoretical talk and does not bear out in reality necessarily. Go to the suburbs/exurbs of Paris and ask the youth of Algerian and Moroccan descent how "French" they are made to feel by white Francophones or how French they feel given the fact they live in largely ghettoized slums. Or let's take a look at astonishingly high and record-breaking numbers of Jews emigrating from France due to fairly widespread anti-semitism which is on the rise. And no, I don't think that French feminists are somehow the paragon of truth here either.

A much worse party than the Republicans led by Trump could easily have been elected in France AND has solid backing of a significant minority. What the French liberte, egalite, fraternite stands for in theory is all nice and great but you could write similarly beautiful-sounding things about the American constitution yet here we are.

yes, there you are, and yes, we were very close to being there too, which is why i am grateful that we didn't get there yet, and the French rallied to do a protest vote and block her - i am well aware how precarious the situation was last year... not sure if Le Pen can be considered worse than the current Republicans to be honest... and right now the extreme right is thankfully in complete disarray and is split...

of course there are so many social issues that are a mess, i would be blind to pretend there weren't, but this wasn't really the place for me to go into it, as i was trying to focus on the equality aspect and how it shapes male/female interactions, and also like to focus on the positives - but i know it's not cool to be positive in this place...

there's plenty i could add re. problems in France, the lack of provision for refugees is a huge one - it is a complete disgrace how things are being handled, but on the upside, masses of people are filling the gap left by the government and bringing daily aid, food, clothing, shelter to refugees, and while the state response is shitty, the people's response give me hope that it's not all bad... in my day to day, i see the practical application of "fraternity" in so many little ways, among my friends and in the community, and it inspires me

you're making the assumption that France is white, it is not - take a look at our government, our celebrities, our writers, our philosophers and thinkers, our workforce... the young people in the banlieus are French, and have the same rights as white French kids - they can get out of poverty thru education and many actually do... at least they have the means available to them if they want to have a go! my son works with a French-African lad from the "banlieu", he has no family help, and has three part-time jobs and is at med school training to be a doctor and doing really fucking well - he is incredible, but he is able to get a grant from the state, get help with his rent, and his jobs give him extra cash - the opportunities are there for young people and there is so much support to help them succeed (without bankrupting them in the process)! i'm proud that the social security and education system here can help young people like this!

there is a real problem with radicalisation, and identity among some young second-generation immigrants in the banlieus, who are rejecting their French nationality, i don't know how this can be solved, but i think it comes down to individual families and maybe starts in the home and in the local community...

i don't want to go on and on as this thread isn't the place for it, but it isn't a pissing contest and these are huge issues, and you have picked easy obvious targets... antisemitism etc (there are masses of convictions for antisemitism btw - it is taken extremely seriously here... just this past week a publisher was planning to reissue Celine's texts (they're considered antisemitic) and due to public outry, publication was pulled - people power)...

oh and re. race, that was a personal observation - a French friend of mine in fact a few of them have the same background as i, being second-generation immigrants from the colonies - my French friends' experiences (from former French colonies) are worlds apart from my own (second-generation from a former British colony) - they are considered French, no questions asked, whereas i was always treated as a foreigner in the UK and experienced racism on pretty much a daily or at least weekly basis in 80s Britain (would clash pretty much everyday with the same kids on my way to school) - and i thought that was amazing!

re. feminism i'm not even saying i agree 100% with the Deneuve letter - there were some pretty obnoxious comments in there for a start, but i understand where some of the main views were coming from, and thought i would try to talk about it in here and try to discuss our cultural differences... sorry for being happy about shit

 

[LuckyNumber7]

anyway, this is off-topic, so stop making stoopid comments and making me have to educate you

[emoji1304]

 

[DaveC]

and come on, when France drew up its declaration of human rights in the 1700s what was your country doing?

that declaration of human rights was drafted in 1789, and the text was highly influenced by the US declaration of independence that was written in 1776. thomas jefferson even helped lafayette write it.

 

[mama cass]

[emoji1304]

jeesus that was actually a joke - i am well aware you are a bloody rocket scientist

 

[mama cass]

that declaration of human rights was drafted in 1789, and the text was highly influenced by the US declaration of independence that was written in 1776. thomas jefferson even helped lafayette write it.

again, i was taking the piss and implying that the US was just finding its feet, but thanks

(maybe i should have referenced Clovis instead )

 

[LuckyNumber7]

jeesus that was actually a joke - i am well aware you are a bloody rocket scientist

I don't invoke what I do as a means of being smarter than someone else. Gotta remember, I'm just another person.

 

[DaveC]

again, i was taking the piss and implying that the US was just finding its feet, but thanks

(maybe i should have referenced Clovis instead )

lol nobody could dispute you on clovis for sure.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

mama, back on the earlier bit though, you made a point about how France has laws etc. against sexism and the sort and that's how it differs from the US. Prior, I made a point about how the cultures are a lot more similar than most let on (a global "western culture").

You say the folks who exhibit the -isms and -phobias are just the assholes. You do realize that's the same thing here, right? Look at voting splits. Some 25% of the people in France supported the ultra-nationalist candidate. By no means does that mean every single one is sexist/racist, etc., but we can use the Le Pen crowd as a rough measure of "the assholes." Well, in the US, Trump carries a base of around 33%. Those are "the assholes" here.

The U.K. has "assholes" too. I can't quantify them as easily, as no relatable example exists.

Much like I tried to explain to our Australian Interference compatriots a few dozen political threads ago, they have assholes, too.

 

[mama cass]

mama, back on the earlier bit though, you made a point about how France has laws etc. against sexism and the sort and that's how it differs from the US. Prior, I made a point about how the cultures are a lot more similar than most let on (a global "western culture").

You say the folks who exhibit the -isms and -phobias are just the assholes. You do realize that's the same thing here, right? Look at voting splits. Some 25% of the people in France supported the ultra-nationalist candidate. By no means does that mean every single one is sexist/racist, etc., but we can use the Le Pen crowd as a rough measure of "the assholes." Well, in the US, Trump carries a base of around 33%. Those are "the assholes" here.

The U.K. has "assholes" too. I can't quantify them as easily, as no relatable example exists.

Much like I tried to explain to our Australian Interference compatriots a few dozen political threads ago, they have assholes, too.

oh yeah i'm aware of that, sure lol!

the differences i meant between the US/UK and France are mainly in terms of social structure and how it is valued (like (free) education, healthcare, welfare etc. which are being eroded in the UK and extremely under threat in the US, but which is one of the foundations of French society)...

plus in France, we are used to paying huuuuge amounts of social contributions and taxes to fund the social security system (which is also seen as the "fraternity" aspect, to contribute within your means to help those who are vulnerable), which is the antithesis of the US and UK right now...

there is also a huge difference re. freedom of speech - in France freedom means saying anything as long as it doesn't hurt others, discriminate etc. (i'm completely oversimplifying)- so even sexist, homophobic, racist, antisemitic words are a crime... i think that's a great thing as words are really powerful... so any verbal assholes here can be called out and sanctioned by law, which i think helps stop things from escalating...

i think it's great because you can't really insult someone in public, you can't say someone is "crazy" because that "undermines the human person", and there are laws for that, so technically you could face charges, if the person decides to go to the police and there are witnesses... it might sound weird to Americans/Brits - i know i was really surprised at first, but i think it helps people interact a little more respectfully... the French are actually incredibly polite and take offence when people don't reciprocate, little things like going into the post office or boulangerie and saying "Bonjour" to everyone in the queue, acknowledging people, giving a handshake to strangers, or the bises to friends and acquaintances... you don't get that in Britain - you try to say "hello" to a stranger you pass when out on a country walk in Britain (or even when i pass Brits here in France) and they freak out and mumble and scurry away as tho you're a serial killer, but to the French, if you didn't say hello it would be really rude... it's little detailed things like that where i see the differences... in basic human interactions... so when i see some of the talk coming out of the US, it makes my hair stand on end as that just wouldn't be possible here technically - there would be lawsuits lol...

also in the family context, in Britain, when i reached 18 and went off to study, i was financially independent from that point on, and i guess now kids have their student loans, whereas here in France, kids who have grants are independent, but for those families who don't qualify for grants (if income is too high), it's the parents who look after their kids financially, for years and years lol, so the financial burden is on the parents, rather than the kids, and i kind of like that, better than saddling the kids with huge debt (and there are tax breaks for parents who do that)... anyway, so loads of little differences really... and different ways of seeing society, social responsibility etc... but i must stop rambling on...

 

[LuckyNumber7]

So much of what you're saying either just isn't true or isn't as black and white as you're making it seem.

 

[mama cass]

I don't invoke what I do as a means of being smarter than someone else. Gotta remember, I'm just another person.

yes but you clearly have brains (even though you attend dubious parties )

 

[mama cass]

So much of what you're saying either just isn't true or isn't as black and white as you're making it seem.

which bits do you mean? i am talking from my own experience here, and general knowledge of the country and its laws...

we've had some pretty black and white experiences here - our neighbour was actually prosecuted for racial abuse, just words - we had no clue it was an offence at the time as it was the kind of thing we were used to in the UK, but the police decided to prosecute... that was pretty eye-opening, hence learning about insults and what is/isn't permitted in terms of freedom of speech etc... in fact, the guy actually hit another neighbour with his car wing mirror during the incident, only the police didn't pursue the physical assault, but only the verbal abuse, which was antisemitic and racist language to a non-Jewish person... so it was all pretty fascinating to see how serious they take verbal abuse and antisemitism here!

thanks for accusing me of lying though, i mean, wow

 

[mama cass]

So much of what you're saying either just isn't true or isn't as black and white as you're making it seem.

meh, it also helps to speak the actual LANGUAGE (as i know you don't) if you want to have insight into a country, especially before completely dismissing someone who is completely bilingual (despite apparently having a Jane Birkin accent ) and who has spent more than half their life living and working in the country over the years, studied the language in-depth, specialised in French history, French foreign policy, international relations, French philosophy, blah blah and is fully integrated into French society (oh and who also bears grudges)

 

[Hewson]

Oh, for sure. Women being "allowed" to have sexual feelings, and to like sex is a fairly new concept in the grand scheme of things.

Good girls don't!
.

 

[Nick66]

And La Marseillaise is responsible for quite possibly the greatest moment in cinema history!



Can't believe there's France bashing on Interference! What's next, Freedom Fries!!!!

 

[kiwilad]

I've already stated - many pages ago - my stand on this, Irvine and Nick have said it better than I did.
But I do flinch (in a good way) at anitram's point that my focus on all of this is on how it affects men. That's not my whole focus, of course, but admittedly it has been a major focus. And I'm reflecting on that.
And while I disagree with much of the cartoon rage of cobl's posts I am affected by his call to listen. I am aware of several women I know well and respect on many levels, who are tearing holes in those defending aziz's right to privacy in this matter. I love these people, these women, and they are passionate about this. And I can't seem to agree with them.

On the other hand I am very close to several women who could have basically said what mama cass said, word for word. A handful of those women are rape victims. Which proves rape is far far FAR too fucking prevalent (none of the attackers have been brought before the courts - only one of those women told authorities). But it also proves some women believe the solution is in empowering women to use their authority, while simultaneously weeding out the asshole men and re-educating the rest of us men about how no means no.

Here's the sticky bit for me though. I'm autistic and have never read subtle signals well. So no has always meant no to me. And man, the amount of times I've had the conversation with women where they've told me that, on that particular occassion, no meant yes and that they wanted to be pursued, convinced, etc. One particular friend of mine wanted me to force myself on her. That was what she was hoping would happen. And I didn't because, you know, who would? But yeah, I read that one wrong.

My point? Human sexuality is about as nuanced and confusing as it gets. It is so much more complicated than some of the reactions being posted in the media at the moment.
Yet anitram and cobl are right. It's just that I can't see they're right for every person, or every situation (nor am I saying you two are professing to be).

One thing's for certain - the fact the conversation is being had is brilliant. I wish it could happen without the aziz-style shame/privacy/judgement bomb thing though.

 

[redhill]

I have to wonder why women are generally able to sexually assault men and make false claims that they have been assaulted or worse...without fear of any consequences.

For this to be a complete conversation, those two issues clearly need to be addressed as well.