Tipping Point - Sexual Harassment In America

[Headache in a Suitcase]

 

[Irvine511]

It would be a great opportunity to finally say that we believe Anita Hill after all these years.

It was rhetorical, of course, and not a terribly smart political move with Trump as president, and his replacement would almost certainly be a white male.

I’m not so frustrated about Frankin anymore. I was, initially, as his behavior is world’s away from Moore and Trump. But as more accusers come forward, this does give the Democrats the opportunity to seize the moral high ground, and better use Moore as the Todd “shut it down” Aikin in 2018.

But I also come back to CT because this was the beginning of it all. I was barely in middle school at the time, but I would read aboutnin in Newsweek and be startled by the lurid revelations. In hindsight, it’s clear that Anita Hill was destroyed by powerful men, and Clarence Thomas, for so many other reasons as well, was never fit to serve.

If this is a cultural watershed, let’s go back to where it all started.

 

[Hewson]

Thanks.
What's so jarring is it feels like only yesterday that even the sniff of something like this would derail a political career.
Although as I type that I think 'Bill Clinton'. But then he's never run for office since his scandal...

.

I assume you are referring to using Monica Lewinsky as his personal humidor.
But Bill had plenty of scandal prior to that, none of which prevented him from being elected in 1992 and re-elected in 1996.
Start with googling Paula Jones, Kathleen Wiley and Gennifer Flowers, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Nick66]

I wonder...Bill Clinton has been a featured speaker at every Democratic National Convention since 1988.

Anyone think he'll be invited in 2020?

 

[Bluer White]

If this is a cultural watershed, let’s go back to where it all started.

Adam and Eve ?

 

[Irvine511]

Adam and Eve ?

So sexual harassment is a good and natural expression of heterosexuality?

 

[Nick66]

This watershed "moment" is a little deja vu'...

 

[Hewson]

Adam and Eve ?

The adult "toy" and "movie"store?

 

[Bluer White]

The adult "toy" and "movie"store?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Adam and Eve ?

What do fairly tales have to do with anything?

 

[anitram]

So sexual harassment is a good and natural expression of heterosexuality?

Yeah, the woman component of heterosexuality doesn't agree....

The Republicans should be rebranded The Party of Roy Moore. In every ad in 2018.

 

[Nick66]

Yeah, the woman component of heterosexuality doesn't agree....

The Republicans should be rebranded The Party of Roy Moore. In every ad in 2018.

That will certainly be the plan and I can see why politically it seems smart for them to push Franken out (even if I think it's sort of bullshit that he was thrown under the bust this way). And that's part of the strategy that involves getting rid of people like Franken & Conyers (though I hate to put them in the same sentence).

But those guys were essentially freebies. The 2018 elections are a year off, and they better hope that there aren't more accusations of Dem pols coming. Because they've set this standard now, and what if next time it's a Senator from a state with a GOP Governor? If you spend six months drawing a bright line and going against the GOP on this issue, and then more Dems end up implicated? That's a dangerous strategy given how bad behaviour by men knows no ideology.

 

[anitram]

I think context is needed on individual cases. I don't think that if Franken's only accusation was that photo by the one journalist we'd be here today. But they added up and added up, suggesting a history of inappropriate behaviour.

Roy Moore is an obvious liar based on his own words, has a very questionable ethical record, is unfit to serve even without the accusations and there are multiple women with similar stories and no incentive to lie. He has no business sniffing near the Senate either.

If you look at the polling in Alabama, which admittedly is questionable as it is done by external outfits mostly in an off year, but the % of college educated WHITE women supporting Doug Jones is the exact same % as the women who voted D in Virginia a few weeks back. That is devastating to Republicans if it plays out to be true - not so much in Alabama because they can survive the number in that state. But they absolutely cannot survive it in basically every other state where Trump surprisingly overperformed.

 

[Nick66]

I really hope Roy Moore loses that race. The guy is just loathsome in so many ways.

 

[anitram]

Another creepazoid gone from Congress. Trent Franks, smell you later. Resigned because a "discussion of surrogacy" with two former female staffers "left them uncomfortable."

I'm sure it was a "discussion."

 

[Irvine511]

time to press pause? food for thought.

There was one notable absence in his speech: Franken did not apologize. In fact, he made it clear that he disagreed with his accusers. “Some of the allegations against me are simply not true,” he said. “Others I remember very differently.” Earlier, Franken had in fact apologized to his accusers, and he didn’t take his apologies back now, but he made it plain that they had been issued in the hopes of facilitating a conversation and an investigation that would clear him. He had, it seems, been attempting to buy calm time to work while a Senate ethics committee looked into the accusations. But, by Thursday morning, thirty-two Democratic senators had called on Franken to resign. The force of the #MeToo moment leaves no room for due process, or, indeed, for Franken’s own constituents to consider their choice.

Still, the force works selectively. “I, of all people, am aware that there is some irony in the fact that I am leaving while a man who has bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault sits in the Oval Office and a man who has repeatedly preyed on young girls campaigns for the Senate with the full support of his party,” said Franken, referring to Donald Trump and the Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore. Trump and Moore are immune because the blunt irresistible force works only on the other half of the country.

That half is cleaning its ranks in the face of—and in clear reaction to—genuine moral depravity on the other side. The Trump era is one of deep and open immorality in politics. Moore is merely one example. Consider Greg Gianforte, the Montana Republican who won his congressional race earlier this year after not only being captured on tape shoving a newspaper reporter but then also lying to police about it. Consider the tax bill, which is stitched together from shameless greed and boldface lies. Consider the series of racist travel bans. Consider the withdrawal from a series of international agreements aimed at bettering the future of humanity, from migration to climate change to cultural preservation. These are men who proclaim their allegiance to the Christian faith while acting in openly hateful, duplicitous, and plainly murderous ways. In response to this unbearable spectacle, the roughly half of Americans who are actually deeply invested in thinking of themselves as good people are trying to claim a moral high ground. The urge to do so by policing sex is not surprising. As Susan Sontag pointed out more than half a century ago, Christianity has “concentrated on sexual behavior as the root of virtue” and, consequently, “everything pertaining to sex has been a ‘special case’ in our culture.”

The case of Franken makes it all that much more clear that this conversation is, in fact, about sex, not about power, violence, or illegal acts. The accusations against him, which involve groping and forcible kissing, arguably fall into the emergent, undefined, and most likely undefinable category of “sexual misconduct.” Put more simply, Franken stands accused of acting repeatedly like a jerk, and he denies that he acted this way. The entire sequence of events, from the initial accusations to Franken’s resignation, is based on the premise that Americans, as a society, or at least half of a society, should be policing non-criminal behavior related to sex.

While this half (roughly) of American society is morally superior and also just bigger than the other half (roughly), it is not the half that holds power in either of the houses of Congress or in the majority of the state houses, and not the half that is handing out lifetime appointments to federal courts at record-setting speed. And while the two halves of this divided country may disagree on the limits of acceptable sexual behavior, they increasingly agree on the underlying premise that sexual behavior must be policed. As I wrote in an earlier column, drawing on the work of the pioneering feminist scholar Gayle Rubin, we seem to be in a period of renegotiating sexual norms. Rubin has warned that such renegotiations tend to produce ever more restrictive regimes of closely regulating sexuality. While policing such unpleasant behavior as groping or wet kisses landed on an unwilling recipient may seem to fall outside the realm of sexuality, it is precisely this behavior’s relationship to sex that makes it a “special case”—and lands us in the trap of policing sexuality.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-...-resignation-and-the-selective-force-of-metoo

 

[Hewson]

I think we have enough "due process" in Franken's case

 

[BEAL]

Guess i don’t quite feel the rage from that photo.

Wasn’t a smart move on his part but unless i missed it he didn’t touch her right ? Or take any other measures while she was asleep?

I just can’t lump this photo in with sexual assault

 

[Irvine511]

I think we have enough "due process" in Franken's case

Without that photo, Franken would still have a job. It’s deadly. And it’s rightly upsetting to anyone.

The point of the article is that half the country doesn’t care about this stuff if it involves someone from their tribe.

 

[Nick66]

The case of Franken makes it all that much more clear that this conversation is, in fact, about sex, not about power, violence, or illegal acts. The accusations against him, which involve groping and forcible kissing, arguably fall into the emergent, undefined, and most likely undefinable category of “sexual misconduct.” Put more simply, Franken stands accused of acting repeatedly like a jerk, and he denies that he acted this way. The entire sequence of events, from the initial accusations to Franken’s resignation, is based on the premise that Americans, as a society, or at least half of a society, should be policing non-criminal behavior related to sex.

Yeah. Part of what's causing all these cases to be lumped together is that the lay definitions for what's occurring are so vague ..."sexual assault" is everything from pinching someone's ass to holding them down and penetrating them. "Unwanted sexual advance" ranges from leaning over to kiss someone on a first date who might not be interested yet to repeatedly trying to kiss or proposition a co-worker. It's absurd.

Whatever you think of what Franken did, it's not in the same league as what people like Moore, Conyers and Weinstein did (or are accused of doing). If the punishment for every case, however mild or serious, is going to be the death penalty (rhetorically speaking), the backlash is going to be swift, and that isn't going to do anyone any good.

 

[BEAL]

We don’t have due process anymore. Innocent til proven guilty.

Our feelings have truly overtaken the facts.

I do believe these women who have come out against the senators (and Hollywood, the press, everyone)

But we are seeing an issue where punishment is being applied to one side.

Both sides should have their due process and then we can decide if they are fit to hold their jobs.

This even goes towards the TN college football job. Schiano basically lost his job over a public lynching. He was never found guilty of any crime, and the allegations against him were proven wrong in the court of law.

But he lost his job because social media went crazy over his time at PSU. And while it disgusts me that any coach there during the Sandusky era seemed to turn a blind eye....i just dont like the idea of losing a job over heresy

 

[BVS]

Today I saw woman after woman on Twitter say, he clearly says “they just let you”, let you is consent, in attempts to defend Trump’s pussy grabbing. Made my stomach turn.

 

[Hewson]

Guess i don’t quite feel the rage from that photo.

Wasn’t a smart move on his part but unless i missed it he didn’t touch her right ?

??????
He's touching her in the photo.

And clearly he's a boob man

unlike George HW "David Cop a Feel" Bush who is an ass man.

 

[kiwilad]

Yeah. Part of what's causing all these cases to be lumped together is that the lay definitions for what's occurring are so vague ..."sexual assault" is everything from pinching someone's ass to holding them down and penetrating them. "Unwanted sexual advance" ranges from leaning over to kiss someone on a first date who might not be interested yet to repeatedly trying to kiss or proposition a co-worker. It's absurd.

Whatever you think of what Franken did, it's not in the same league as what people like Moore, Conyers and Weinstein did (or are accused of doing). If the punishment for every case, however mild or serious, is going to be the death penalty (rhetorically speaking), the backlash is going to be swift, and that isn't going to do anyone any good.

I kinda tried to make these points a few weeks back in this thread. Not to take away from the victims, but to caution against lynch mob mentality. And I suggested sex is treated with a special extra sensitive barometer.
Now I don't know the truth re Franken, but to lose a career based in large part on that photo, is fucked up.
There's no way any of us here can fully contextualise that photo. We're only guessing. It's incredibly easy to completely direct news cycles and public narratives with single photos.
I'm NOT saying he's innocent. I'm know the woman has provided testimony and it wasn't testimony that left Franken in a good light.
But we - the collective we - have spent centuries working on and crafting the legal system. Innocent till proven guilty. A jury of your peers. Etc etc
Social media/general media stories like this sell A LOT of copy. Drive a huge amount of advertising revenue. There just IS a point to them being prominent, salacious and constant - it is good business.
That isn't a point that implicates the victims, of course. And the empowerment being achieved at the moment is amazing.
But I'm certain that empowerment would be even more entrenched and long lasting if these accusations were brought before courts/committees etc and judged there. Rather than via public reactions.

I guess my main point is I know how easy it is to shape public narratives when stories like this take hold. We should be bigger, wiser and more sober than that.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

??????
He's touching her in the photo.

And clearly he's a boob man

unlike George HW "David Cop a Feel" Bush who is an ass man.

I can't tell if he's actually touching her in the photo or not. I do think it's important if he is touching her versus if he's not.

But the photo was a supporting evidence, not an initial claim. So, it doesn't matter if he's touching her or no, because the photo isn't the main claim.

If it was just the photo I would be with BEAL here in saying that I'm not too put out of place by it. It does genuinely look to me that he's hovering over her or maybe ever so slightly touching her with obviously humorous intentions about it. Pervy and raunchy, perhaps, but not coerced kissing tongue down your thrown I'm famous let me use my power to descend upon you kind of harassment.

 

[BEAL]

The Right has the upper hand in nearly everything because they know the Left will eat their own.

Throwing out all morals, decency, etc the GOP will win at at any costs. While i want a society that goes high when others go low, it doesn’t work in politics for sure.

Franken got screwed. His behavior in the past appears to be that of a jerk, and possible pervert, but i don’t see any sort of crime here. At least nothing that’s come out. He appears to be touchy feely, and the photos so far appear to be done in the form of a perverted jerk.

I have seen hundreds of not more of these types of photos on my social media feed as well. Usually it’s other women grabbing their friends tits, why? Cause they’re big and think it’s funny.

Should my lady friends lose their jobs over these photos ? How do i know that the gal getting her boobs lifted REALLY is OK with it ?

If Franken committed some crime, then he should be tried for it in court. Not public opinion.

Nick brought up a good point, would this have happened if his seat would be replaced by a GOP? Doubtful.

We are naive to think that the country is going to look at what the Dems are doing and get behind them. We elected a man with dozens of sexual assault claims, as well as his own admission of taking advantage of women.

And women still voted for him over Clinton.

Such a frustrating time we live in

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I can't tell if he's actually touching her in the photo or not. I do think it's important if he is touching her versus if he's not.

But the photo was a supporting evidence, not an initial claim. So, it doesn't matter if he's touching her or no, because the photo isn't the main claim.

If it was just the photo I would be with BEAL here in saying that I'm not too put out of place by it. It does genuinely look to me that he's hovering over her or maybe ever so slightly touching her with obviously humorous intentions about it. Pervy and raunchy, perhaps, but not coerced kissing tongue down your thrown I'm famous let me use my power to descend upon you kind of harassment.

The issue with the Franken story is that the accusers story that he made some last minute script changed to pressure her into letting him kiss her has been disproven by video from years earlier, where Franken did the exact same show with the exact same scene. Combine that with the accuser being a common guest on Hannity, combined with Roger Stone apparently knowing that Franken was going to have a problem prior to anyone else, and it makes people a tad suspicious.

I think he's right to step down. If he's innocent, he can do more to continue to fight the accusations, clear his name, and come back even stronger. If he isn't, then fuck him.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Mario Batali, come on down

 

[anitram]

But we - the collective we - have spent centuries working on and crafting the legal system. Innocent till proven guilty. A jury of your peers. Etc etc.

I see this a lot - people conflating the criminal justice system with the court of public opinion.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" has NEVER been a standard when it comes to the public deciding that a person is unsavoury. I am not sure why now it is different, except the underlying feeling that it's "unfair" that these men lost their jobs.

 

[Nick66]

I think he's right to step down. If he's innocent, he can do more to continue to fight the accusations, clear his name, and come back even stronger. If he isn't, then fuck him.

If he's truly "innocent", he shouldn't step down, period.

And the way he stepped down was sort of unattractive and self-serving. No real admission of guilt, basically just I'm a martyr and oh Trump/Moore. Apparently he feels he's being treated unfairly because he didn't outright deny the accusations but was trying to be "sensitive" to the notion that all women should be believed. Except that's absurd. If really feels he didn't do what he's being accused of, he should have flat out said so.

And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't think he should have resigned at all. The whole thing is a farce. He was forced out purely because of politics, so the party could say "see, we're not as bad as them."

I see this a lot - people conflating the criminal justice system with the court of public opinion.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" has NEVER been a standard when it comes to the public deciding that a person is unsavoury. I am not sure why now it is different, except the underlying feeling that it's "unfair" that these men lost their jobs.

True. But that doesn't mean that the public's standard for judging whether certain behaviour is unsavoury is fair or well considered. Especially given that until relatively recently this kind of behaviour was tolerated, and even expected, as "boys will be boys."

That standard was wrong. But "believe the woman no matter what" and guilty until proven innocent isn't exactly a good standard either. The pendulum is now just swinging the other way, and there will be a backlash, and hopefully at some point we'll arrive at something fair and reasonable.

However at the moment I'm not sure our society has the sense and judgement to get there anytime soon.