Time to close down GITMO?

[deep]

Biden: U.S. Needs to Close Cuba Prison


Sunday June 5, 2005 10:46 PM



WASHINGTON (AP) - A leading Senate Democrat said Sunday the United States needs to move toward shutting down the military prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

``This has become the greatest propaganda tool that exists for recruiting of terrorists around the world. And it is unnecessary to be in that position,'' said Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del.



A Pentagon report released Friday detailed incidents in which U.S. guards at Guantanamo desecrated the Quran. Last month, Amnesty International called the detention center for alleged terrorists ``the gulag of our time,'' a charge Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld dismissed as ``reprehensible.''

The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, GOP Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, plans hearings this month on the treatment of foreign terrorism suspects at the prison camp.

Biden, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, proposed that an independent commission take a look at Guantanamo and make recommendations.

``But the end result is, I think we should end up shutting it down, moving those prisoners,'' he told ABC's ``This Week.''

``Those that we have reason to keep, keep. And those we don't, let go.''

He added, ``I think more Americans are in jeopardy as a consequence of the perception that exists worldwide with its existence than if there were no Gitmo.''

There are about 540 detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Some have been there more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about the al-Qaida terrorist network.

William Schulz, director of Amnesty International USA, defended the group's earlier assertion of Guantanamo Bay and other U.S. detention faciliticies as gulags, but acknowledged that ``this is not an exact or a literal analogy.''

He said there are differences, particularly in size and scope, between what goes on at U.S. prisons and those run by the former Soviet Union.

``But there are some similarities,'' he insisted on ``Fox News Sunday.'' ``The United States is maintaining an archipelago of prisons around the world, many of them secret prisons into which people are being literally disappeared - held in indefinite incommunicado detention without access to lawyers or a judicial system or to their families. And in some cases, at least, we know that they are being mistreated, abused, tortured and even killed.

``And those are similar at least in character if not in size to what happened in the gulag and in many other prison systems in world history.''

 

[nbcrusader]

4 out of 5 terrorists joined the cause because of Gitmo?

 

[financeguy]

I think it is reasonable to look at the adminstration of Gitmo, but I wouldn't advocate closing it down just yet.

It is reasonable for democracies to show that terrorism has consequences and will be punished.

 

[U2DMfan]

I don't think the question is whether to shut it down, it's what to do with the detainees. The building they are kept in hardly amounts to anything but a superficial talking point. I like Joe Biden, but I think he's barking up the wrong tree.

``This has become the greatest propaganda tool that exists for recruiting of terrorists around the world. And it is unnecessary to be in that position,'' said Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del.

I always sort of thought the easiest recruiting tool they have at their disposal is to say "look at America, invading, occupying and overthrowing a government in the Middle East and stomping on Islam without justification. They want to destroy Islam blah blah"

or something to that effect.

Not saying it does or doesn't have any basis in fact, just saying that could easily be a justification for terrorist recruitment.

I mean someone could defend America by tossing out United Nations sanctions among other things, but do you really think these peope buy it? I tend to think they want to hear what they want to hear. A lot of Americans don't think we were justified, why would Islamics with anti-American tendencies?

I tend to think they would beleive just about anything negative about American government, and especially the situation surrounding the invasion of Iraq.

 

[deep]

Despite his criticism of Guantanamo Bay, Carter said Amnesty International should not have called the prison "the gulag of our time"
Carter said the alleged abuses at Guantanamo Bay could never compare with the forced labor camps operated by the former Soviet Union

Carter Calls on U.S. to Shut Down Gitmo

By BERNARD McGHEE, Associated Press WriterTue Jun 7, 5:43 PM ET

Former President Carter on Tuesday called for the United States to shut down the Guantanamo Bay prison to demonstrate its commitment to human rights.

"The U.S. continues to suffer terrible embarrassment and a blow to our reputation ... because of reports concerning abuses of prisoners in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo," Carter said after a two-day human rights conference at his Atlanta center.

Such reports have surfaced despite President Bush's "bold reminder that America is determined to promote freedom and democracy around the world," Carter said.

About 540 detainees are being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. Some have been there more than three years without being charged with a crime. Most were captured on the battlefields of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002 and were sent to Guantanamo Bay in hope of extracting useful intelligence about the al-Qaida terrorist network.

Carter said the United States needs to make sure no detainees are held incommunicado and that all are told the charges against them.

Despite his criticism of Guantanamo Bay, Carter said Amnesty International should not have called the prison "the gulag of our time" in a report last month. President Bush has termed the report by the human-rights group "absurd."

Carter said the alleged abuses at Guantanamo Bay could never compare with the forced labor camps operated by the former Soviet Union.

 

[bcrt2000]

I think its important for the people in the west to realize, its things like THIS that they are so hated in many parts of the world

There needs to be a removal of arrogance from the air-- when someone criticizes you, don't throw it back in their face, sometimes you've got to look in the mirror and think about what you're doing and what attitude you are projecting

even your worst enemies sometimes can be right about your greatest flaws

 

[deep]

Bush open to possibly closing Gitmo camp

JENNIFER LOVEN

Associated Press

WASHINGTON - President Bush on Wednesday left open the possibility that the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, could be shut down following mounting criticism from former President Carter and others.

"We're exploring all alternatives as to how best to do the main objective, which is to protect America," Bush said when asked in an interview with Fox News Channel's Neil Cavuto if he would close the detention center.

this good news

 

[nbcrusader]

See, he is a reasonable man.

 

[phanan]

Despite his criticism of Guantanamo Bay, Carter said Amnesty International should not have called the prison "the gulag of our time"
Carter said the alleged abuses at Guantanamo Bay could never compare with the forced labor camps operated by the former Soviet Union

I'm glad former President Carter sees it that way...

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

[sarcasm] i say we just shut the whole place down and let all the people kept there go... i mean, what harm could that cause? [/sarcasm]

 

[financeguy]

{Sarcasm} I'd say we just invade another Middle Eastern country, I mean what harm could that cause? {sarcasm}

 

[VertigoGal]

Closing it down or doing a heavily publicised "makeover" might be somewhat useful in giving less fodder to terrorist recruiters. However, I think they'll always find something to fit their agenda. It's sort of like the Israel/Palestine situation (not citing my views on that either way)...they don't really give a shit about the Palestinians, it's just another easy reason to convince people to hate us. In fact, many of the Middle Eastern gov'ts/news agencies/recruiters wouldn't want the Palestinians' lot to improve, as they'd have less material.

Personally I find the hypocrisy of the whole thing unbearable. I mean, a couple dozen investigations into Koran-kicking out of the thousands and thousands of prisoners held? We *should* look into them, and we *should* know about them (see...here, we have free press!). But I don't want to hear about it from governments in countries with no elections or corrupt ones, where they behead people in public, without free press, it goes on and on.

This constant shock-and-horror act from the whole world is getting a bit old.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

{Sarcasm} I'd say we just invade another Middle Eastern country, I mean what harm could that cause? {sarcasm}

you never ended your sarcasm

 

[financeguy]

you never ended your sarcasm

Damn, you're right. I left out the / . So every single thing I say on here has to be sarcastic from now on. So, no change I guess. (Just kidding, )

 

[Tarvark]

Thank god.

Although realistically there are probably scores of other equal or worse American facilities out there.

 

[deep]

GOP Sen. Suggests Closing Guantanamo Jail

By BRENDAN FARRINGTON, Associated Press WriterSat Jun 11,10:40 PM ET

Sen. Mel Martinez said the Bush administration should consider closing the Guantanamo Bay prison for terrorism suspects — the first high-profile Republican to make the suggestion.

"It's become an icon for bad stories and at some point you wonder the cost-benefit ratio," Martinez said Friday. "How much do you get out of having that facility there? Is it serving all the purposes you thought it would serve when initially you began it, or can this be done some other way a little better?"

Martinez, who served in President Bush's first cabinet and is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, made his comments after Democratic Sen. Joseph Biden (news, bio, voting record) suggested earlier in the week that the prison in Cuba be shut down.

President Bush said Wednesday that his administration was "exploring all alternatives" for detaining the prisoners.

Human rights groups and former detainees say prisoners at Guantanamo have been mistreated. The Pentagon said last week that some U.S. personnel there mishandled prisoners' copies of the Quran, the Muslim holy book.

That disclosure followed a report in Newsweek, later retracted, that U.S. investigators had confirmed that a guard had flushed a prisoner's Quran in a toilet. The White House blamed that report for violent protests in Muslim nations.

Amnesty International called the facility "the gulag of our time." Former President Jimmy Carter has also said Guantanamo should be closed.

Martinez, who strongly supported Bush's efforts in Iraq during his campaign last year, also expressed concerns about progress in the war.

"I am discouraged by how long it has taken for us to begin to draw down some forces," Martinez said at the annual Florida Society of Newspaper Editors/Florida Press Association convention.

He said he has had to write many condolence letters to the families of Floridians killed in Iraq

 

[deep]

20 December 2002
1115: Detainee offered water—refused. Corpsman changed ankle bandages to prevent chafing. Interrogater began by reminding the detainee about the lessons in respect and how the detainee had disrespected the interrogators. Told detainee that a dog is held in higher esteem because dogs know right from wrong and know how to protect innocent people from bad people. Began teaching the detainee lessons such as stay, come, and bark to elevate his social status up to that of a dog. Detainee became very agitated.

 

[nbcrusader]

We agitated detainees?????

In some countries, you lose your head and get to look at your own body.

 

[Irvine511]

We agitated detainees?????

In some countries, you lose your head and get to look at your own body.

are we "some countries"? i thought we were the land of the free and the home of the brave, the greatest country ever in the history of the world who's job it is to be the best at everything ever and to liberate people from the shackles of non-American democracy and non-American culture.

if the Bush admin wants to use such a worldview to justify the GWOT, then we better start acting like it and not make relativistic claims when it's convenient for us.

 

[deep]

Irvine,

When I read replies like that

I just conclude that the person supports torture.

 

[nbcrusader]

Is the description of treatment of detainees offered by deep (without commentary) de facto wrong?

 

[deep]

When one wants to put things in the context of "It is not as bad as beheading."

That is wrong.


When Gonzalez was testifying before congress about the Abu Ghraib abuses
and his memo stating that anything short of organ failure or death was permissible

That is wrong.

When he was pressed about Abu Ghraib abuses
his deflection was,
these people "cut off heads."

 

[Irvine511]

yup.

 

[nbcrusader]

Irvine,

When I read replies like that

I just conclude that the person supports torture.

When I read replies like that

I just conclude that the person would rather use cheap insinuations instead of bringing substance to a forum.

 

[Irvine511]

When I read replies like that

I just conclude that the person would rather use cheap insinuations instead of bringing substance to a forum.

i disagree.

if you're going to say, "well, it's not as bad as beheadding," it says to me, in effect, that all things not as bad as beheadding are permissable.

 

[deep]

I am sorry I posted a conclusion.


I should have worded it differently


perhaps

"When I read replies like that

It makes me wonder if they are supporting torture?"

 

[nbcrusader]

You want to create a presumption based on a statement, then make an evaluation based on your own presumption? Take a second to ask a question before you fire off another round of insinuation and accustation.

 

[deep]

Take a second to ask a question before you fire off another round of insinuation and accustation.

It makes me wonder if they are supporting torture?

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

these people are getting treated better than most american prisoners in american jails... where's the outrage there? or are people only outraged when it suits their own political ideals?

these prisoners are not being tortured... if you want to do the whole "they're being held without trial" argument, fine... but the insinuations that these people are being tortured is a little silly to me.

 

[nbcrusader]

Deep, you must take lessons from Karl Rove. Ask a question that implies more than it seeks.

Despite this unnecessary beheading sidetrack, I asked a straight forward question:

Is the description of treatment of detainees offered by deep (without commentary) de facto wrong?