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Old 06-01-2012, 08:46 PM   #121
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I have gone to great lengths to try to argue without bringing morality into it. Why does everyone ignore that?
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:57 PM   #122
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There are people with moral arguments on both sides, that's the thing about morals. To not recognize this is ignorance.

That's why it's important to argue this from a fact base point.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:44 PM   #123
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Totally agree. Like yourself, I have a tendency to align my sympathies with the victims of crime rather than the perpretators. Yeah, I know. Crazy right wing extremist talk. But, hey, that's just us.
1, you realize this article started off discussing the fact that an innocent person was put to death, right? It wasn't someone who committed a horrific crime being put to death, it was someone who had nothing to do with the crime itself.
2, yes, because being against the death penalty naturally means we support and sympathize with the perpetrators and not the victims . It couldn't possibly have anything to do with, again, the very topic that started this whole discussion?

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Only on this forum is state sanctioned execution for irredeemable mass murderers and child killers viewed as far out crazy bigotted right wing stuff - in the real world, it's what most normal, moral people think, quite frankly.
Ah, the "it's what most people think" argument. You know that's not a strong debate tactic, right?

And quite frankly, I think child abusers/killers should be marched into jail, and the person bringing them in can announce, loudly, to every other prisoner what crime those sorts of people are being brought in for. As I understand it, child abusers/killers are violently hated in jail amongst the other criminals, weirdly enough, so the moment those other prisoners find out what these sickos did to a child, I'm sure the punishments they'll come up with could put the death penalty punishments to shame.

Now how sympathetic does that idea sound?

Also, the insults are really getting old, everyone. Can we grow up, please?
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Old 05-10-2013, 06:32 PM   #124
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With the caveat that juries have still not rendered verdicts in any of these cases; I propose that a morally just and noble society should have no reason* not to seek the death penalty for the monsters in Colorado, Boston, Philadelphia or Cleveland.


*state capital punishment laws aside
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:30 PM   #125
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I propose that a morally just and noble society should have no reason* not to seek the death penalty
Interesting proposal. How do you square that with your belief in Christianity?
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Old 05-11-2013, 02:59 PM   #126
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Interesting proposal. How do you square that with your belief in Christianity?
The Bible doesn't directly inform my view of the death penalty but instead the belief that allowing murderers to live actually cheapens human life sending the message that society is not really serious about forbidding murder. The Bible supports capital punishment although good people of faith can disagree. "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God He created him," is the only capital crime before Mosaic Law and is found early on in Genesis. Jesus never spoke out about it and, well, you know.

I'm all for taking every reasonable precaution and using the death penalty judiciously but some crimes I see very little argument against using it when sentenced. The only exception being those that also forbid assisted suicide, abortion for any reason and are military pacifists. They at least are consistent.
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Old 05-11-2013, 04:30 PM   #127
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I love when Christians use both the old and new testament to justify their beliefs. You can almost literally have any belief there is and find support for it in one or the other
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Old 05-11-2013, 04:46 PM   #128
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If murderers were to beg and plead for their life upon receiving the death penalty, and go to the room to be lethally injected crying how the world is unfair and saying, "damn I shouldn't have done that" - I would be all for the death penalty.

But too often murderers don't care as we hope they would. Timothy McVeigh was proud to see those gathered to watch him die because it was what he wanted (that is how I began to change my mind about the death penalthy). Jodi Arias is also playing martyr by asking to be put to death. Murderers have a completely different mindset than the average person. They are callous, self-centered to the point of being narcissists, and can also be natural-born sociopaths. They don't see the death penalty as a warning - they could care less. Their "work", if you will, is what's important.

Put them in isolation and let them rot in prison. They would have no audience there.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:28 PM   #129
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the belief that allowing murderers to live actually cheapens human life sending the message that society is not really serious about forbidding murder.
So in order to show society is serious about murdering, we should put someone to death?
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:33 PM   #130
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I love when Christians use both the old and new testament to justify their beliefs. You can almost literally have any belief there is and find support for it in one or the other
I actually used the Old Testament in my rationale for not supporting capital punishment earlier in this thread. I'll throw in a New Testament verse to round that out:

"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword."
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:32 PM   #131
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I actually used the Old Testament in my rationale for not supporting capital punishment earlier in this thread. I'll throw in a New Testament verse to round that out:

"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword."
At least you're consistent
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:36 AM   #132
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I actually used the Old Testament in my rationale for not supporting capital punishment earlier in this thread. I'll throw in a New Testament verse to round that out:

"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword."
I remember Nbcrusader and I had an interesting discussion about that verse being a justification for the death penalty. This wasn't a commandment, this was a warning. To put it in today's terms; if you live the gangster life, you will die by the gangster life.

This was not a commandment by God telling man how to react, too often verses about ultimate justice are misinterpreted as how man should punish on earth.
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Old 05-12-2013, 01:52 AM   #133
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Yeah I could see it being read as a warning to criminals, suggesting that death is a suitable punishment for a violent lifestyle. But that interpretation would be out of character for Christ and bizarre for the context: it's clearly a pacifist verse.

But that's the issue with using the Bible to explain one's rationale for their viewpoints; it's so wide open to interpretation that the same verse can be used to justify contrasting points.
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:42 AM   #134
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Yeah I could see it being read as a warning to criminals, suggesting that death is a suitable punishment for a violent lifestyle. But that interpretation would be out of character for Christ and bizarre for the context: it's clearly a pacifist verse.
No, I didn't mean death is suitable for a violent lifestyle, I meant it's more likely to happen, I was just trying to put it into the same terms that the verse did. I don't see it in a justice context at all.

But what I meant is that it's just a common sense observation. If you live by the gun, you will more than likely die by the gun. If you live this way, you will more than likely die by it's consequences.
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Old 05-12-2013, 02:52 AM   #135
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Oh, I see what you meant by it not being phrased as a commandment then. I agree.
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