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Old 05-19-2012, 08:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan
The government is using more money and resources solely for the purpose of being bloodthirsty and vindictive. My tax dollars are going towards bloodlust.
A very large amount of US foreign policy fits this description too, though it has killed many more people and been a lot more expensive.
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Old 05-20-2012, 07:18 AM   #32
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In 1989, DNA analysis was virtually non-existant and indeed all of the science of forensics was still in its infancy so they didn't have the resources to nail down convictions like they do now.

It is horrible that a person was executed for a crime he didn't commit but thankfully that can't happen now with today's technological advances.

That being said, I'm totally FOR the death penalty and there are a lot of criminals whom I would have loved to electrocute/inject/hang...etc.
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Old 05-20-2012, 07:23 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by AchtungBono View Post
It is horrible that a person was executed for a crime he didn't commit but thankfully that can't happen now with today's technological advances.
Uhhhhhhh. Yes, it can. Technology's capable of failing just like anything else.

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Old 05-20-2012, 07:29 AM   #34
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If it is fallible in sport, then yes, technology can be fallible when being used to decide if a person is guilty or not.

I used to be all for the death penalty... and to be honest I can't say I'd really have liked people such as Hussein, Osama, Amrozi et al to have simply been locked up. They are some sick, sick people out there that are far better off dead. I'm not as sure as I once was though. At least if innocent people go to jail there's a chance they'll be rightly exonerated.
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Old 05-20-2012, 07:33 AM   #35
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At least if innocent people go to jail there's a chance they'll be rightly exonerated.
Exactly.

Course, that being said, however, I can't even begin to imagine what it'd be like to miss out on a good chunk of your life because you spent it in jail for something you didn't do. Sure, if a person is found innocent, they can be let go, which is great. But so much adjustment to be made, if your prison stay was particularly hellish, you have that mental issue to deal with, and then of course it would be hard to be honest and tell people you were in jail, because even though you're innocent, some people would still look at you suspiciously anyway.

It's an insane situation no matter what.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:23 AM   #36
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It is horrible that a person was executed for a crime he didn't commit but thankfully that can't happen now with today's technological advances.
I'm afraid you are a victim of what is called the CSI-effect or CSI-phenomenon: The belief that forensics these days is perfect and that every criminal case these days is waterproof by the use of it. But well, TV still is not reality.
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Old 05-20-2012, 11:08 AM   #37
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I'm afraid you are a victim of what is called the CSI-effect or CSI-phenomenon: The belief that forensics these days is perfect and that every criminal case these days is waterproof by the use of it. But well, TV still is not reality.
Also a victim of "life can be made 100% risk free." I understand a moral stance against the death penalty but would the same people outlaw high-speed police pursuits because inevitability innocent people will, and have been, killed by them? Hostage rescues?
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Old 05-20-2012, 11:21 AM   #38
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Also a victim of "life can be made 100% risk free." I understand a moral stance against the death penalty but would the same people outlaw high-speed police pursuits because inevitability innocent people will, and have been, killed by them? Hostage rescues?
That's sort of comparing apples to oranges, isn't it? We have much more control over the outcome of a criminal trial than we do high pressure situations like the ones you propose.
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Old 05-20-2012, 11:44 AM   #39
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The government is using more money and resources solely for the purpose of being bloodthirsty and vindictive. My tax dollars are going towards bloodlust.
Also the tax dollars of the families, friends and the victims themselves.

Is there no act too heinous that you forfeit your "right to life" by committing it? Does the state not have the right to kill a Timothy McVeigh when he commits an act of terrorism killing hundreds of innocents?

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Of cases that have reached finality, about one in nine resulted in exoneration. Add to that the number of innocents executed (basically an unknown because cases like this are almost never investigated after the inmate is executed), and you are approaching close to 15 percent on death row being innocent.
?

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Very simply, the government killing people it is not sure are even guilty is the worst thing this country does.
Again, that is a subjective statement of opinion as you've presented nothing dispassionately to support it.

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I don't have to back off my stances on Wall Street fraud, debt or income inequality to say this. Those are issues with terrible moral consequences, but they are at least somewhat reasonably complicated. This issue is not.
Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times
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D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery
The 101st Airborne Division Association is asking its members and other Screaming Eagles veterans to step up and help one of their own — a 90-year-old D-Day veteran who nearly died as a result of a brutal home invasion last month.

Bob Strait of Tulsa, Okla., was hospitalized after a vicious March 14 robbery that killed his wife, 85-year-old Nancy Strait. She was beaten and raped in the attack.

The couple, who met on a blind date on Thanksgiving Day 1946, had been married for 65 years.
The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

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In my state, we have executed as many death row inmates as we have exonerated.
I'd hope so. There was reason to arrest them, charge them, try them, find them guilty and sentence them with capital punishment. That's going to weed out most innocent people from ever getting to death row isn't it?
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Old 05-20-2012, 11:56 AM   #40
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exactly. are there even any other first-world countries that still use the death penalty?
Not Norway for sure.

Execute 90 people in cold blood and you might get 26 years in prison. If, if the judge is a real hardass and tacks on 5 years for "unfit to return to society" to the 21 year maximum penalty.
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:06 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Also the tax dollars of the families, friends and the victims themselves.

Is there no act too heinous that you forfeit your "right to life" by committing it? Does the state not have the right to kill a Timothy McVeigh when he commits an act of terrorism killing hundreds of innocents?
I'm aware that it's everyone's tax dollars, but thank you for pointing that out.

I think you're asking the wrong question here, and this is sort of the crux of the argument. The question should not be about the heinousness of the crimes. Rather, why are we executing people when we are not and cannot be 100 percent certain they are guilty?
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?
Let me try to explain what I'm saying: "finality" would mean that the case is over. That means that either the person has been executed or the person has been freed because they were innocent of the crime.

Of cases that have reached said finality, about 10 percent of them were exonerations. Based on that, we are about 90 percent accurate in even getting the decisions of guilt on these crimes right.
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Again, that is a subjective statement of opinion as you've presented nothing dispassionately to support it.
Look at the numbers I just presented. I was slightly off in my calculations in the first post, but basically, 1-in-10 death row inmates didn't even commit the crime they are on death row for.

ONE IN TEN. That's insanity.
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Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.
Again, you're talking about heinousness, and that shouldn't be the argument.
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I'd hope so. There was reason to arrest them, charge them, try them, find them guilty and sentence them with capital punishment. That's going to weed out most innocent people from ever getting to death row isn't it?
You hope so? I don't think you understood the point: HALF of cases that reached finality in my state were WRONG. As many people have been executed on death row as have been freed from death row. It's literally a coin flip.
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:07 PM   #42
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Not Norway for sure.

Execute 90 people in cold blood and you might get 26 years in prison. If, if the judge is a real hardass and tacks on 5 years for "unfit to return to society" to the 21 year maximum penalty.
He should be in prison for life. I can't imagine anyone here arguing that.
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #43
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Personally, I have a hard time understanding how any Christian could be for Capital Punishment. Even before taking the systemic percentage of wrongful convicitions into account.
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Old 05-20-2012, 12:37 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by INDY500

Also the tax dollars of the families, friends and the victims themselves.

Is there no act too heinous that you forfeit your "right to life" by committing it? Does the state not have the right to kill a Timothy McVeigh when he commits an act of terrorism killing hundreds of innocents?

?

Again, that is a subjective statement of opinion as you've presented nothing dispassionately to support it.

Not complicated?

D-Day vet beaten, wife killed in robbery - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

The 90-year-old has since died as well. Tell that family and community how uncomplicated this issue is.

I'd hope so. There was reason to arrest them, charge them, try them, find them guilty and sentence them with capital punishment. That's going to weed out most innocent people from ever getting to death row isn't it?


You don't want the government to tax you or provide you with health care ... But you'll let the government KILL you and/or other Americans?
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Old 05-20-2012, 02:02 PM   #45
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Also a victim of "life can be made 100% risk free." I understand a moral stance against the death penalty but would the same people outlaw high-speed police pursuits because inevitability innocent people will, and have been, killed by them? Hostage rescues?
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
That's sort of comparing apples to oranges, isn't it? We have much more control over the outcome of a criminal trial than we do high pressure situations like the ones you propose.
Exactly, taking two entirely different things doesn't make a valid comparison.
Having a moral, legal stance against the death penalty is in no way arguing for a risk-free life.
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