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Old 10-13-2013, 08:41 AM   #16
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Feminism really is a lot like racism because you have to deal not only with individuals being assholes, but also with structures and institutions that have developed to serve the needs and interests of one group not the other, and also thousands of attitudes about what is 'normal' and what is an 'extra' need or request that are ingrained in everyone, not just the deliberate assholes. So when you look at trying to create equality out of a system like that, it may look a bit like "favoring" that disadvantaged party for quite a long time.

Whenever you look at a binary concept like black/white, gay/straight or male/female, one of them naturally is given 'normal' status and the other is assigned as 'other', which is the not-normal, the extra. And when you try to create equality between them or remove the binary system, it's naturally going to feel like loss of power or status to the 'normal' privileged group. That doesn't mean someone is actively trying to take from them- it just means that things are going to feel radically different.
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:44 AM   #17
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Fully agreed here.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:02 AM   #18
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I guess we have different kinds of feminism then. Because I do really agree with what you say Jeevey, but that's not how I perceive it here. Then again, maybe there is a bit more freedom for females here in Europe, as there's more acceptance than in the US(Same with gay marriage for that matter). So the cases still fighting tend to be a bit more extreme.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:11 AM   #19
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America is the fucking pits for feminists, imo.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:35 AM   #20
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You've got your share of extremest there, gotta give ya that. Tea party anyone?
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:15 AM   #21
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America is the fucking pits for feminists, imo.

I couldn't disagree more.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:29 AM   #22
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There are worse places, it's true. We don't face the same challenges that women do in the Congo or Saudi Arabia. The internet has given women a lot of public voice that they couldn't get through mainstream media. But we lag behind the rest of the developed world on almost every measure of women's wellbeing and gender equity. Not even to go into all the ways that violence against and domination over women is still institutionalized and accepted, we still regularly have to have a conversation about if feminism is important or valid. That to me is the most depressing thing.
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Old 10-13-2013, 02:30 PM   #23
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There are worse places, it's true. We don't face the same challenges that women do in the Congo or Saudi Arabia. The internet has given women a lot of public voice that they couldn't get through mainstream media. But we lag behind the rest of the developed world on almost every measure of women's wellbeing and gender equity. Not even to go into all the ways that violence against and domination over women is still institutionalized and accepted, we still regularly have to have a conversation about if feminism is important or valid. That to me is the most depressing thing.
Do you have statistics and examples to back this up?
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Old 10-13-2013, 04:44 PM   #24
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Do you have statistics and examples to back this up?
The Global Gender Gap Is Closing, But The U.S. Is Still Failing Its Women - Forbes

The Global Gender Gap Report 2012 | World Economic Forum - The Global Gender Gap Report 2012

International Comparison '.org': Internationa Gender Equality Statistics
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Old 10-13-2013, 06:15 PM   #25
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These are all interesting, and it seems, as in so many polls, that Scandinavia -- with its robust social welfare programs -- leads the pack in so many ways. There's lots we can learn from them.

None of these seem to give any credence at all to the hyperbolic language used in previous posts, nor the headline that the US is "failing" it's women. It seems as if the same socioeconomic issues that plague the US as a whole is the same for women.

Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.
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Old 10-13-2013, 06:18 PM   #26
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When I'm off my mobile I'll provide more examples.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:15 PM   #27
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Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.
From what I've heard, Europeans treat sexual harassment like it is no big deal. I had friends who studied abroad in Italy or France, and whenever a guy pinched their ass, they were mocked for complaining about it.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:18 PM   #28
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These are all interesting, and it seems, as in so many polls, that Scandinavia -- with its robust social welfare programs -- leads the pack in so many ways. There's lots we can learn from them.

None of these seem to give any credence at all to the hyperbolic language used in previous posts, nor the headline that the US is "failing" it's women. It seems as if the same socioeconomic issues that plague the US as a whole is the same for women.

Given my own experiences in North America and Europe, I'd say that women in NA are less restricted by traditional notions of gender roles -- as has been noted, Europe has a degree of social conservativism that's always struck me as strange. The weird French resistance to SSM (seen in the "manif pour tous" demonstrations) were rooted much more in essentialist notions of masculinity and femininity than actual opposition to homosexuality. Anecdotally, I can vouch that issues such as date rape are much more open over here, and I have never heard of anyone having to buy a fake wedding ring to avoid catcalling as friends if mine had to do in Italy, Spain, etc.
I was looking for graphs and charts and statistics for you, so take no responsibility for the headline of US is failing its women. I googled international comparisons of gender equality, not "Proof women are fucked".

All of our experiences and observations are pretty much by definition limited, which does not mean they are not interesting ideas to consider, but are not definitive. I would also guess that it is possible you might be missing the nuance of the experience because it does not fall under your radar in the way straights will miss the nuance of gays' experiences and whites will miss the nuance of a black experience, however objectively attentive they may think they are. The status is not the same.

And while certainly the socio-economic situation affects men as well as women in US, the study is not on how women are doing when compared to men in their respective countries, not how women are doing as a sole indicator.

Date rape and cat calling have never been my main interest it this. So while we can talk date rape and not have to wear fake wedding rings (which actually appear to many US men to be a come-on , so what would be the point?)

I'm interested in leadership roles and the inclusion of more women in tenured science and math and philosophy, of stronger networking between women,
of society finding more adjectives to describe us than the limited array we get which might happen if we weren't lumped in as another class and seen as the individuals we are.

I would like to have a discussion about the essentialism of masculine and feminine and see where we all stand and it is a subject that interests me and affects us all.

However, I will stop here because this is a thread about the boys and I don't want to shortchange them.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:41 PM   #29
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The catcalling is a serious issue, no doubt, and I do hear that it's worse in places like Italy than here. However, Europe's better social support for children and families is way ahead of the US in creating quality of life for women. Their better economic equality makes a huge difference, too.

Bono Saint, I'm taking a class right now on 20th century American masculinity. It's fascinating, and hearing how the young men's speech reveals thoughts about essentialism and gender roles is most fascinating of all. It's a great subject but I don't think it could be done justice in a forum like this.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:32 PM   #30
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America is the fucking pits for feminists, imo.
Speaking of feminists and pits...

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