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Old 09-26-2013, 10:01 AM   #571
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Once "green" technologies become cheaper than fossil fuels (which is projected to occur within the next 10-15 years) - then the issue will resolve itself. Then the great effort to clean up the mess will get underway.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:10 AM   #572
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From one my favorite books in the last few years...

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According to Travis Bradford, chief operating officer of the Carbon War Room and president of the Prometheus Institute for Sustainable Development, solar prices are falling 5 percent to 6 percent annually, and capacity is growing at a rate of 30 percent per year. So when critics point out that solar currently accounts for 1 percent of our energy, that’s linear thinking in an exponential world. Expanding today’s 1 percent penetration at an annual growth of 30 percent puts us eighteen years away from meeting 100 percent of our energy needs with solar.

And growth doesn’t end there, but it certainly gets interesting. Ten years later— twenty-eight years from now— at this rate we’d be producing 1,550 percent of today’s global energy needs via solar. And, even better, at the same time that production is going up, technology is making every electron go even further. Whether it’s the smart grid making energy use two- or threefold more efficient, or innovations like the LED lightbulb dropping the energy needed to light a room from one hundred watts to five watts, there is dramatic change ahead. With efficiencies lowering our usage and innovation increasing our supply, the combination really could produce a squanderable abundance of energy.

So what do we do with a squanderable abundance of energy? Of course, Metcalfe’s been thinking about this for some time. “First,” he proposes, “why not drop the price of energy by an order of magnitude, driving the planet’s economic growth through the roof? Second, we could truly open the space frontier, using that energy to send millions of people to the Moon or Mars. Third, with that amount of energy, you can supply every person on the Earth with the American standard of fresh, clean water every day. And fourth, how about using that energy to actually remove CO2 from the Earth’s atmosphere. I know a professor at the University of Calgary, Dr. David Keith, who has developed such a machine. Back it up with cheap energy, and we might even solve global warming. I’m sure there’s a much longer list of great examples.”

To see how much longer that list might be, I tweeted Metcalfe’s question. My favorite answer came from a Twitter handle BckRogers, who wrote: “All struggles are effectively conflicts over the energy potential of resources. So end war.” I’m not entirely sure it’s that simple, but considering everything we’ve discussed in this chapter, one thing seems certain: we are going to find out.

Kotler, Steven; Diamandis, Peter H. (2012-02-21). Abundance (pp. 172-173). Simon & Schuster, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:22 AM   #573
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I don't understand the uproar over replacing fossil fuels with green technology and energy. Oil won't last forever but the sun, wind and water will. Although a drought might hurt some things, but I'd think anyone who invents something that runs on water also invented a back-up plan.
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Old 09-26-2013, 11:49 AM   #574
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Once "green" technologies become cheaper than fossil fuels (which is projected to occur within the next 10-15 years) - then the issue will resolve itself. Then the great effort to clean up the mess will get underway.
It is perhaps my greatest hope in the world that you are correct.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:09 AM   #575
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http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/27/world/...ngs/?hpt=hp_t1

The UN, what a bunch of quaks
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:23 AM   #576
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It is perhaps my greatest hope in the world that you are correct.
Mine as well, my friend...mine as well
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:31 AM   #577
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They are only 95% certain...so, there is a chance they're all wrong.

So you're telling me there's a chance!
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:00 AM   #578
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While there may always may be an element of dogma with anything human's choose to support. Science tends to provide avenues through which to challenge prevailing opinion, hence why there is the acceptance of the possibility of being wrong.

But would you get into a car which 95 out of a hundred engineers were telling you the brakes would fail?

The whole why bother due to the cost of renewables is very self-defeating, that will only come down with more investment and to make them more widely available.

We shouldn't bother about world hunger, too expensive. Healthcare, ah fuck it, too expensive. Seems so very nihilistic.

The energy companies can well afford much more renewable investment and make profits, but because we're so focused on profit above all else, we're incredibly blinkered.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:58 PM   #579
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His self written intro:

Is this the kind of "source" you would accept from your students? I surely hope not. Let's forget about being taken seriously in here, but for your own sake in order to understand this issue you have to understand the legitimacy of your sources and learn to discern.

Lets start with something simple, do you respect modern science in general?
Yikes, that's about as legit as citing Wikipedia.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:08 PM   #580
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Are you serious? Oscar let's put on your critical thinking cap. Do these people profit from these connections? So why is this concerning? If your life's work lead you to get involved how is that even an issue.

Would you find it concerning if a conservative politician was connected to a pro-life organization?

Now of course the opposite would be concerning, if you had scientist or politicians that were vocal about climate change being a hoax and you discovered they were profiting from Exxon then that would raise some eyebrows. Come on man, critical thinking will allow this conversation to move forward, this just leaves it dead in its tracks.
It is critical thinking because Greenpeace and WWF have made all kinds of exaggerated predictions knowing that they exaggerated (in other words, lying). Lomborg has made a career listing them all. The pro-life versus pro-choice comparison isn't critical thinking. The U.N. report has been ridiculous for a long time and now all the posts people made on how scared they are over record temperatures has more to do with propaganda and perception than science. It has more to do with the urban island heat effect and expanding cities than the planet actually dangerously heating. We are meeting the agreements on temperature without actually meeting any emissions agreements.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:24 PM   #581
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So who are your sources for urban island heat effect and why do you value their inconsistent findings?
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Old 09-28-2013, 01:24 PM   #582
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So who are your sources for urban island heat effect and why do you value their inconsistent findings?
Because land based temperatures are higher than satellite temperatures. Also because in 1990 many of the colder stations were removed.

Everything you want to know about the skeptical view on urban island heat effect is here:

Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change

Search: Urban Island Heat Effect

Secondly you should be wondering about the results of computer projections for temperature. They weren't just inconsistent. They were just plain wrong. And the mid to higher predictions were so warm that we would have to have a massive increase in temperatures (worldwide) for the next few years to even catch up.
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Old 09-28-2013, 02:07 PM   #583
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Do you think you're privy to information that 95% of climate scientists aren't?

Also, let's say for a second that projections are off and it isn't as bad as some might think. Are you happy to fuck up the environment just enough so that it doesn't affect global temperatures quite as much as suspected? Is it really that bad to start thinking more consciously about where we get our energy from? Why are you content to remain on the current trajectory?
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:09 PM   #584
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It is critical thinking because Greenpeace and WWF have made all kinds of exaggerated predictions knowing that they exaggerated (in other words, lying). Lomborg has made a career listing them all. The pro-life versus pro-choice comparison isn't critical thinking.
Predictable response... one that doesn't actually address the issue

You're a fool to think that not every lobbying factor might exaggerate or represent only one side of the facts. I'm really sorry you couldn't understand the abortion parallel.

Next time, try addressing the issue.
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:05 AM   #585
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Do you think you're privy to information that 95% of climate scientists aren't?

Also, let's say for a second that projections are off and it isn't as bad as some might think. Are you happy to fuck up the environment just enough so that it doesn't affect global temperatures quite as much as suspected? Is it really that bad to start thinking more consciously about where we get our energy from? Why are you content to remain on the current trajectory?
Are you happy to fuck up the economy entirely? Do you look at humans as separate from the environment? Dualism is hypocritical. If they came after your job I'll enjoy some schadenfreude. Close down your business with energy taxes.

Telling Africa they have to wait to develop only with current green technologies is awful (a professor some years ago told our class that they have to wait. And this is what green groups hope for as well). Africa needs their fossil fuels to grow the way they need to develop just like everyone else. I didn't think I would be siding with Bono that capitalism is the way out for Africa (not rocket science to me) but we need economic growth there. Shit. We need economic growth in the entire world. We've had huge amounts of CO2 in the past and planet earth did quite well. It appears the planet is less sensitive to CO2 than climate alarmists are.

The argument "well we need to not fuck up the environment just a little" doesn't work for me because it puts humans below on the environment. It assumes that those with green jobs will be morally superior so they can get subsidized by everyone else. It means that the middle class will have even more obstacles to staying there. It means that any panic that authorities drudge up has to be followed whether they are right or not.

I hope AEON is right that there will be some miraculous solar cure in the future, but I think we are still decades away and all the climate hypocrites also want a good standard of living. They aren't going to side with no children, green vehicles, no vacations involving planes, constant blackouts and brownouts with shitty green technology. They have amygdalas just like I do and they crave dopamine just like I do. That's why they are hypocrites. They need the government to force people to be dispassonate with life and to pursue none of the goals that make people happy. Without being forced even Democrats who are scared of global warming will continue to pursue high paying jobs and a better standard of living.
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