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Old 12-11-2011, 04:02 PM   #241
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The wind farms in west Texas are amazing, the design of the blades don't spin fast enough to kill anything. The investment has already paid for itself, ahead of schedule. It's profitable, cheap, and powering big chunks of Texas, and they're not even done.

It's the kind of success story conservatives like to sweep under the rug.
Thanks for lying about the conservative position. Conservatives aren't against cheap green energy. Try and run Texas with ONLY wind energy and you see where the real debate is. Talk about a straw man argument on your part. What people really want is cheap green energy that can replace fossil fuels without damaging the standard of living. That isn't possible with any green techology or even all of them at the same time. It'll be decades before we find something that good and it'll probably involve something like nuclear and improved solar panels that can actually absorb all the light spectrum for energy.
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:34 PM   #242
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we do not have decades. peak oil is approaching. we need to develop green energy as fast as possible or we are fucked.
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Old 12-11-2011, 05:54 PM   #243
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And some say peak oil is not here especially after many of the large finds recently. Nuclear can replace coal but too many environmentalists hate nuclear which is a shame.
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Old 12-11-2011, 10:11 PM   #244
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Not all environmentalists love wind farms.

AOK - News - Activism May Save the Southern Flint Hills

Also, when I crossed the border into Manitoba, it was full of windmills and it made the countryside look like an industrial wasteland. Is that what we want? In trying to be green, we shouldn't fill our wild country with all this crap. That kind of defeats the purpose. Hopefully these wind turbines are just a fad.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:09 AM   #245
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What people really want is cheap green energy that can replace fossil fuels without damaging the standard of living. That isn't possible with any green techology or even all of them at the same time. It'll be decades before we find something that good and it'll probably involve something like nuclear and improved solar panels that can actually absorb all the light spectrum for energy.
Why does there have to be one size fits all? If you have wind, use it. If you have sun, use it. If you have water, use it.

Why this rigid yesteryear mindset?
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:13 AM   #246
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Peak oil is most definitely here. "Big discoveries" don't mean shit against the trend.
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:20 AM   #247
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Peak oil is most definitely here. "Big discoveries" don't mean shit against the trend.
What a joke! Of course big discoveries mean something. I think people just love apocalypse doom and gloom. The most subversive thing I can say is that things are getting better
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Old 12-12-2011, 12:46 PM   #248
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What a joke! Of course big discoveries mean something. I think people just love apocalypse doom and gloom. The most subversive thing I can say is that things are getting better
i am about to turn 21. i have a lot of years left on this earth why would i ever want things to be worse as opposed to better? you really have no idea what you are going on about most of the time.
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Old 12-12-2011, 03:22 PM   #249
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What a joke! Of course big discoveries mean something. I think people just love apocalypse doom and gloom. The most subversive thing I can say is that things are getting better
If you can plug your fingers in your ears as a drop in OPEC exports affects the prices of the lettuce you buy for your salads, and the plastic toys you buy for your kids, I admire your detachedness.
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:47 PM   #250
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Let me know when they have those little nuclear reactors powering 18-wheelers, will you, Oscar?
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:34 PM   #251
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Let me know when they have those little nuclear reactors powering 18-wheelers, will you, Oscar?
That sounds like an argument for fossil fuel energy. If nuclear is a joke to you then wind and solar must be even worse.

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If you can plug your fingers in your ears as a drop in OPEC exports affects the prices of the lettuce you buy for your salads, and the plastic toys you buy for your kids, I admire your detachedness.
Great and what do you think green taxes would do to those same bills? Since fossil fuels are WAY cheaper than green energy this "peak oil" scare appears to be more alarmism again. With green taxes we would still be using fossil fuels for decades with even higher prices (because of the taxes). If you don't like high prices then what is the logic for jumping in right away jacking them up with carbon taxes? The U.S. hasn't even gotten to the point yet where it's even exploiting what has been found yet within their borders. If people don't like the prices as they are they should drill at home more and trade with Canada and Brazil plus add more nuclear power plants that can reprocess spent nuclear materials. Thorium would be a safer option.
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:38 PM   #252
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WTF are you talking about? The US has been a net oil importer for decades. Why would it do that if it had other options?
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:44 PM   #253
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WTF are you talking about? The US has been a net oil importer for decades. Why would it do that if it had other options?
That's my point. The U.S. has domestic finds that it could exploit more of. They also could build more nuclear power plants over time.
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:50 PM   #254
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That's my point. The U.S. has domestic finds that it could exploit more of.
Because it would be prudent energy policy to wait until we've nearly tapped out those reserves before we start looking for alternatives?
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Old 12-12-2011, 09:23 PM   #255
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Because it would be prudent energy policy to wait until we've nearly tapped out those reserves before we start looking for alternatives?
Because without government no one is seeking alternatives? Admit it! You have to have "peak oil!" and "environmental catastrophe!" alarmism to make that argument. Do we then need government to create new technologies for other things? Why not have massive tax increases to eliminate particular diseases? There's thousands of priorities competing with each other and not enough resources to do big changes quickly. It's going to take decades to achieve. For someone who's probably against the Iraq war you should be more skeptical about something so expensive that would make the war chump change in comparison.

It's over buddy. Any energy excessive energy legislation will screw the economy. If Obama wins and manages (though congress won't go for it) to push for some carbon tax it will be so unpopular that it won't pass or so watered down that CO2 still increases. Even Democrats voted against cap and trade. The science is exagerrated, the alarmism is manipulative and for CO2 to not rise it would require a destruction of modern economies to achieve it. Why not just have a tax credit for scientific research and development in your own country and avoid the U.N. all together? It's certainly a lot cheaper than this:

UN study says $76 trillion needs to be invested in Green Technologies over the next 40 years to avoid 'Planetary Catastrophe'

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Humanity is close to breaching the sustainability of Earth, and needs a technological revolution greater – and faster – than the industrial revolution to avoid “a major planetary catastrophe,” according to a new United Nations report. The report - The World Economic and Social Survey 2011: The Great Green Technological Transformation (251 pages). The survey says $1.9 trillion per year will be needed over the next 40 years for incremental investments in green technologies. At least $1.1 trillion of that will need to be made in developing countries to meet increasing food and energy demands. Major investments will be needed worldwide in the developing and scaling up of clean energy technologies, sustainable farming and forestry techniques, climate-proofing of infrastructure, and in technologies reducing non-biological degradable waste production.

This UN study is asking for 3% of world GDP for an accelerated conversion to green technologies, revamping agriculture according to their agenda and tossed in poverty elimination. I see zero chance of this proposal being adopted. They are asking for 20 times more than what was rejected at Copenhagen. It is interesting to see what kinds of plans get created by the United Nations and to imagine what the world would be like if these kinds of plans actually had serious consideration.

Did you also consider that if you increase taxes and there is no replacement for fossil fuels for decades, you may actually destroy capital to the point that will slow down development instead of speeding it up? __________________

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