The Religion of Peace?

[Jive Turkey]

Interesting new study illustrating religious attitudes in Muslim countries. Most notably, the percentage that support the death penalty for apostasy. I can't help but roll my eyes when people trot out the old "Most Muslims feel the same way about Islamic fundamentalists and Christians do about the Westboro Baptist Church". No. It's an inherently violent religion and the vast majority in a number of countries support its backward beliefs

Daily chart: Sharia do like it | The Economist

 

[BoMac]

I have many, many Muslim friends, and have never had any issues with anyone practising that religion. I have also attended Friday prayers at a mosque as an observer on a couple of occasions. The vast majority are great people and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

It's important to make a distinction, in my opinion, between the religion one practises and the environment they live in. That means that a lot of the places in the world with issues of Islamic extremism also have totalitarian regimes. That environment, and not the religion, often helps foment extreme violence.

 

[Jive Turkey]

The environment is shaped by the religion. The ones calling for death to apostates are only following their rule of religious law.

 

[BoMac]

Your well documented stance on religion precludes any chance at having a reasonable discussion on this topic.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Well documented, indeed; The numbers are there

 

[cobl04]

I will say that to me there seems to be more backwards views and extremism in Islam than in Christianity. But the Muslims that I know are wonderful people.

Environment probably has a lot to do with it.

 

[Jive Turkey]

You don't think there is a correlation between the kinds of people who would want to move to a more secular society and the lack of fundamentalism? Obviously the numbers will be skewed.
But the fact is, we've got a highly religious society, with a book that states apostates should be put to death, and a large majority of the population that agrees with that, yet we want to blame the environment and not the religion? A little disingenuous

 

[cobl04]

Dawkins has tweeted about that very subject. It's very scary.

 

[Jive Turkey]

That's where I came across the link

 

[the iron horse]

This will be an interesting thread to watch and read.



My first thoughts brought this to mind:


"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

~George Orwell

 

[BVS]

Would it be any different if it were a Christian theocracy? Is it the fault of the religion, or using the religion as the governing body?

 

[Jive Turkey]

Is it the fault of the religion, or using the religion as the governing body?

It's people's willingness to get duped into believing a religion that they'd let govern their country. Luckily, as a whole, we're not so ignorant in the 'west'. But I would say, yes, if religion had a strangle hold on our society as it does on theirs, there wouldn't be much difference (as history shows us), but we don't live 1000 years ago and the majority of humanity has progressed from savagery

 

[BVS]

It's people's willingness to get duped into believing a religion that they'd let govern their country. Luckily, as a whole, we're not so ignorant in the 'west'. But I would say, yes, if religion had a strangle hold on our society as it does on theirs, there wouldn't be much difference (as history shows us), but we don't live 1000 years ago and the majority of humanity has progressed from savagery

But if economics were different, where would we be? Economics will effect education, which effects access to information which can breed a "willingness to get duped". So I'm not sure why you dismiss environment.

I doubt that you'll find many well educated worldly folks joining the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[BEAL]

So what needs to happen? I don't want to get involved in every Muslim country. But there are severe human right issues. Especially women's rights.

I somehow doubt if women had more rights, more power, etc in their societies it wouldn't be so bat shit crazy and backwards

 

[Jive Turkey]

But if economics were different, where would we be? Economics will effect education, which effects access to information which can breed a "willingness to get duped". So I'm not sure why you dismiss environment.

I doubt that you'll find many well educated worldly folks joining the Westboro Baptist Church.

I dismiss environment because it's all there in the book they're taking their lead from. No verses about killing apostates, stoning gays, chopping off adulterer's heads, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Environment and religion aren't so neatly divided. People need to stop making excuses for shitty belief systems in the name of correctness

 

[BVS]

People need to stop making excuses for shitty belief systems in the name of correctness

But you're singling one out over another, which in reality you would get the same results if either religion were the government.

In essence what you are really trying to say is that No Religion = Peace.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'm singling that one out because that's where they're pulling their beliefs from. Would you give redneck hillbilly white supremacists the same out? That it's the environment's fault, not the ideology?

And I would never argue no religion = peace. I would argue religion = people doing shitty things they wouldn't do otherwise

 

[BVS]

Would you give redneck hillbilly white supremacists the same out? That it's the environment's fault, not the ideology?

I'm not sure what "out" you are talking about. I guess the reason this analogy doesn't work for me is that I believe the environment breeds this particular ideology. The Muslim faith can and does thrive outside of this violent theocratic setting. But I don't know if redneck hillbilly white supremacism survives outside of its environmental issues.

 

[Jive Turkey]

So what needs to happen?

I'm not sure. But we need to recognize that it is a religious issue, Islam is an especially violent religion, and all this talk of 'the religion of peace/it's not the religion, it's the environment' is sticking ones head in the ground

 

[digitize]

Insert my usual economic/environmental determinism here

 

[Jive Turkey]

I mean, what exactly is meant by 'it's the environment'? What economic conditions lead to "if you leave Islam, you should be put to death"?

 

[digitize]

I mean, what exactly is meant by 'it's the environment'? What economic conditions lead to "if you leave Islam, you should be put to death"?

Colonialism, (semi-)post-colonial resentment of the West, and, perhaps most critically, seeming lack of incentives to behave like "the West" borne by a century and a half's worth of the aforementioned issues. And social pressure borne by that lack of incentives.

 

[Jive Turkey]

What separates a country like India from a country like Jordan?

 

[Jive Turkey]

Colonialism, (semi-)post-colonial resentment of the West, and, perhaps most critically, seeming lack of incentives to behave like "the West" borne by a century and a half's worth of the aforementioned issues. And social pressure borne by that lack of incentives.

The death penalty for apostasy certainly didn't come about in the past century and a half. And who said anything about leaving Islam for any western ideology?

 

[BVS]

I'm not sure. But we need to recognize that it is a religious issue, Islam is an especially violent religion, and all this talk of 'the religion of peace/it's not the religion, it's the environment' is sticking ones head in the ground

IF it is a religious issue, then how is it that so many devout Muslims can live a peaceful life devoid of any violent tendencies, yet environmentally impacted people like domestic abusers and racists take education and training in order to live peaceful lives devoid of hate?

 

[BVS]

The death penalty for apostasy certainly didn't come about in the past century and a half.

Are you not aware of secular societies having death penalties for treason(which could just be a matter of speech)?

 

[digitize]

What separates a country like India from a country like Jordan?

Jordan's not the best example to use there, because of its prosperity relative to, say, Syria, Lebanon, Afghaniatan, Iran, Yemen, and the like. But, regardless, India is a society on the upswing. It did face the sort of anti-colonial resentment that is alive and well in the Islamic world today, but the British were wise enough to yield to it. Today, India has opportunity in its interaction with the west. Which is very different from the Middle East.

Of course, some (Indy and possibly you) will claim that I have the causal chain reversed - that it is India's values causing its relative prosperity. Perhaps I am too fixed in my semi-deterministic views. And certainly values like radical Islam do not do wonders for economic growth. However, I think that the causal chain starts with the environment. Maybe I just like to avoid social darwinism, but it has been incredibly well demonstrated over the past century how malleable nominal beliefs (such as religion) are in how one lives when faced with different circumstances. Evolutionary psychology, situationism, and behavioral economics tie right into this.

This is a shitty post, but I'm on my phone and I don't want to write the stock dissertation that I write once every quarter or so on this subject on this forum.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Jordan's not the best example to use there, because of its prosperity relative to, say, Syria, Lebanon, Afghaniatan, Iran, Yemen, and the like.

This is exactly why it is a fine example. And they were one of the worst offenders!
And to write off colonialism in India is unfair when colonialism is one of your main points.
Religion is the difference

 

[Jive Turkey]

IF it is a religious issue, then how is it that so many devout Muslims can live a peaceful life devoid of any violent tendencies, yet environmentally impacted people like domestic abusers and racists take education and training in order to live peaceful lives devoid of hate?

Nobody is claiming it's 100% of muslims. Just 85% or so in some countries.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Are you not aware of secular societies having death penalties for treason(which could just be a matter of speech)?

Do you hear about them bashing people's heads in with rocks very often? or ever?