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Old 05-05-2013, 06:48 PM   #76
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Nothing to do with religion. Move along folks.

BBC News - Riot police battle Islamists in Dhaka Bangladesh
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:37 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Then again, the Islamic world was far ahead of Europe during the Middle Ages in science and technology. Now it has switched. I've read plenty of articles where Muslims insist they are superior because of their inventions and developments centuries ago.
And what do you suppose happened in the Muslim world to cause the collapse of science? Oh, right, you can thank Islam for that
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:46 PM   #78
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There's truth to that, yes. Look at the Taliban only allowing the Quran to be read and banning medical books because it depicts naked bodies. Unbelievable the insanity those extremists are thinking.

My point was some Muslims have too much of the victim mentality. Look at China and India. They once had great civilizations that were hurt by colonialism. Are they committing violence on the West in retaliation? No, they're adapting to the realities of the world. Even the Greeks aren't feeling sorry for themselves that they're no longer creating pillars of civilization as they once did (correct me if I'm wrong). I guess Muslims thinking their religion is superior to everyone else's makes them react as they are now :shrugs:
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:51 PM   #79
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But it wasn't colonialism that stifled their progress; it was their own religious fanaticism. Progress and an intellectually fertile society were nearly instantly stopped in their tracks.
I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, just clarifying that detail
In a way, yes, much like the Taliban; But imagine that happening in the west today and you'd have a more accurate understanding of how much of an impact it had
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:02 AM   #80
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But it wasn't colonialism that stifled their progress; it was their own religious fanaticism. Progress and an intellectually fertile society were nearly instantly stopped in their tracks.
I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, just clarifying that detail
Which is odd because the Islamic world created algebra and the number zero. It discussed non-Islamic philosophy and made advances on astronomy and other sciences. Even Timbuktu had a library of all these things, which the Mali Al-Qaeda burned down recently

I don't know if it were fanaticism or colonialism that stopped the Islamic world. Maybe they reached an intellectual limit because of their theocratic society

No it might have had to do with Wahabbism, which is the radical version of Islam. It was begun by an imam about 150 years or so ago, and the Saudi royal family endorsed it for power. Because of them, this kind of Islam is being preached worldwide. It's after midnight now, so I gotta get going, but that may be a link.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:15 AM   #81
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I think it can literally be traced to this guy

Al-Ghazali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sure there were contributing factors, but this is the man who more or less buried Islamic science
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:55 AM   #82
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Nothing to do with religion. Move along folks.

BBC News - Riot police battle Islamists in Dhaka Bangladesh
The majority of Dhaha are Muslim, so in this example the members of the government and police would probably be majority Muslim. Yet you are insisting that the religion is at fault and not the interpretation of the religion. So practicing Muslims are fighting and arresting rioting Muslims, but you are convinced it's the religion and no other factors? So what's wrong with these practicing Muslims what are part of the government and police force? They don't seem to fit into your black and white argument.

I feel like there's a chicken or the egg conversation going on, most of us are saying it's a conversation about how the chicken is raised or how the egg is cooked, and you are red faced pounding the table yelling with all absolution that it's the egg.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:53 AM   #83
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How can you say this isn't a religious matter?? Jesus. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears "la la la la la!". You've got a population of highly religious people - people who only want what the Quran is asking of them - rioting against a relatively secular government. The problem is they don't think their government is Islamic enough. You need to open your eyes.
And I'm not red faced (though I guess it helps you to justify your irrationality by projecting it onto me), but you should be red with embarrassment. Your analogy says absolutely nothing substantial about anything (I'm sure you thought it was pretty clever... sorry). Maybe try addressing actual facts instead of making vague, pseudo-intellectual analogies. Actually, this would be the perfect time to relate it all back to the "socio-economic" factors you were talking about the other day

And please stop hiding behind the dishonest phrase "interpreting the religion", as if those people are doing it wrong (again, the majority of them)
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:00 AM   #84
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Even on the sliding scale of secularism, the government is still doing this:

"She said the government had already arrested four bloggers for making "derogatory comments" against the Prophet Muhammad and they would be punished if found guilty. "

And you don't think any of this has to do with religion? Take your head out of the sand, chief. This illustrates perfectly how irrational you are in defense of religion. I'd love to hear all about your "other factors"
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:28 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
But it wasn't colonialism that stifled their progress; it was their own religious fanaticism. Progress and an intellectually fertile society were nearly instantly stopped in their tracks.
I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, just clarifying that detail
In a way, yes, much like the Taliban; But imagine that happening in the west today and you'd have a more accurate understanding of how much of an impact it had
Mmmm... I know you've got your hobby horse and far be it from me to drag you from the saddle, but why did this particular process take the better part of a thousand years?

Because the serious decline in the Islamic world's material and political ascendency (Middle East, Africa, Mughal India; admittedly Spain was long gone by then) mostly post-dates 1500 (not coincidentally when Europe began to become less dependent on the Mediterranean and land routes to Asia). ...Though the earlier (13th C?) Mongol attacks on Baghdad and further west arguably dealt a very heavy blow also. Ancient Rome proved unable to withstand similar assaults from the Huns etc.

The marriage of convenience between the house of Saud and Wahabbist fundamentalism in the 19th century, although unrelated to the above developments (indeed they were mainly antagonistic toward a perceived-to-be insufficiently pious Ottoman Empire), has a lot to answer for.
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:09 AM   #86
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How can you say this isn't a religious matter?? Jesus. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears "la la la la la!". You've got a population of highly religious people - people who only want what the Quran is asking of them - rioting against a relatively secular government. The problem is they don't think their government is Islamic enough.
So where is the majority in this particular matter? Why are they not joining this riot against the government? So are the majority in this country doing it wrong and the rioters have it correct? I guess once we have these inconsistencies hashed out we can start to discuss in a civil manner this very black and white issue you've put forth.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:47 AM   #87
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So where is the majority in this particular matter? Why are they not joining this riot against the government? So are the majority in this country doing it wrong and the rioters have it correct? I guess once we have these inconsistencies hashed out we can start to discuss in a civil manner this very black and white issue you've put forth.
So because everybody isn't rioting in the streets, you're right? I've shown you the numbers. The majority of muslims support Sharia law. Hell, since this conversation began, I've come across a Canadian study that says over 60% of muslims living in Canada want Sharia law to apply to Muslim communities. 60%! It's amazing that your whole argument consists of saying (and little more) that the people not abiding by the word of the quran are proof that this isn't a religious issue.
When are you going to stop dodging and actually apply your geopolitical reasoning to any of the situations brought up here. You've literally not supplied us with any argument save for vague notions and platitudes. "no it's not" seems to be all you can muster
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:50 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
Mmmm... I know you've got your hobby horse and far be it from me to drag you from the saddle, but why did this particular process take the better part of a thousand years?

Because the serious decline in the Islamic world's material and political ascendency (Middle East, Africa, Mughal India; admittedly Spain was long gone by then) mostly post-dates 1500 (not coincidentally when Europe began to become less dependent on the Mediterranean and land routes to Asia). ...Though the earlier (13th C?) Mongol attacks on Baghdad and further west arguably dealt a very heavy blow also. Ancient Rome proved unable to withstand similar assaults from the Huns etc.

The marriage of convenience between the house of Saud and Wahabbist fundamentalism in the 19th century, although unrelated to the above developments (indeed they were mainly antagonistic toward a perceived-to-be insufficiently pious Ottoman Empire), has a lot to answer for.
A thousand years? The end of the Golden Age of Islamic Science was some time in the 13th century. Even if we go by your 1500 date, where are you getting 1000 years from??? (and this was all more of an aside and not really relevant anyway)
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:33 AM   #89
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So because everybody isn't rioting in the streets, you're right? I've shown you the numbers. The majority of muslims support Sharia law.
Now go and poll those majority of Muslims and see if they agree on what Sharia Law means or if they all agree on the interpretation of these laws. We've had this discussion in here before and there's a large disparity of what these laws mean, if they are literal, or how they are to be upheld amongst Muslim scholars, so how are you to have the absolute answer if those that know the religion can't?

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It's amazing that your whole argument consists of saying (and little more) that the people not abiding by the word of the quran are proof that this isn't a religious issue.
"Not abiding by the word of Quran"? Come on, so in order to prove your point you're now going to argue the fundamentalists' point of view? This is why your whole premise doesn't stand, you are pretending to have the absolute answers to issues that don't even have absolute answers from within their own communities.
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #90
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"Not abiding by the word of Quran"? Come on, so in order to prove your point you're now going to argue the fundamentalists' point of view?
As was stated so elegantly in the article that you either didn't bother reading or glossed over, they're called fundamentalists because they're following the fundamentals of the religion. It's not them that have it wrong; it's that the ones who pick and choose what to follow and what to ignore are more secular. Fundamentalism isn't a bastardization of religion, it's religion in its purest form. Your whole premise is that the less religious followers are proof that the religion isn't at fault; it's completely counter intuitive and wrong. I couldn't be happier that there are Muslims who have the common sense and common decency not to follow the quran to the letter (Just the same as I'm glad there are Christians and Jews who do the same). And like everything else in life, there's a sliding scale to which people adhere to religious beliefs. It just so happens that the further away from religion you slide on that scale, the better off people are.
Are you not willing to concede that there are elements to the religion that are causing serious problems?
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