The Religion of Peace?

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Now there's a thoughtful response. I'll reply when I get home and have a bit more time.
 
BoMac said:
It is the same argument.

Perhaps this is too simplistic, but my view is that there are peaceful, law-abiding gun owners around the world. I know many of them. So why is gun violence such an issue in the U.S.? I'd say there are many factors to this growing gun culture, but misinterpretation of the Second Amendment is one of them.

As mentioned previously, there are millions of peaceful, law-abiding Muslims in Western countries, including Canada and the United States. They've integrated well into society, and are just going about their lives. So what's the difference between these Muslims and those that live a pitiful existence in theocratic and/or totalitarian countries? Hmmm.

I'm not a religious person, but I don't use Muslim's (or Christians, Jews, Hindus etc.) faith against them. A majority are great human beings. I know many, many of these people. Unless, of course, they're all jihadist sleeper agents waiting for the right opportunity to strike. And if anyone believes that, I truly feel sorry for them.
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Again, it's cherry picking the parts you want to believe. When you have extremely flawed books that contradict one another, you see exactly what we get.

Christians learned a long time ago they had to ditch the extreme laws/views of the Bible in order to allow a secular society to florish. For the most part this has happened. Still exceptions like trying to change current laws to slant towards a Christian view, but luckily in this country that will not happen.

Middle East does not have the stability, the technology, nor the education as Western countries. So they still cling to bronze age beliefs. Those that leave to find a better life, either realized before they left, or after they arrived to adapt to faith to fit in.

That has to be a difficult task to do. And definitely can lead towards a victim mentality.
 
BoMac said:
It is the same argument.

Perhaps this is too simplistic, but my view is that there are peaceful, law-abiding gun owners around the world. I know many of them. So why is gun violence such an issue in the U.S.? I'd say there are many factors to this growing gun culture, but misinterpretation of the Second Amendment is one of them.

As mentioned previously, there are millions of peaceful, law-abiding Muslims in Western countries, including Canada and the United States. They've integrated well into society, and are just going about their lives. So what's the difference between these Muslims and those that live a pitiful existence in theocratic and/or totalitarian countries? Hmmm.

I'm not a religious person, but I don't use Muslim's (or Christians, Jews, Hindus etc.) faith against them. A majority are great human beings. I know many, many of these people. Unless, of course, they're all jihadist sleeper agents waiting for the right opportunity to strike. And if anyone believes that, I truly feel sorry for them.
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I'm not denying that there are millions of peaceful, law abiding Muslims. If you read those numbers, they alone imply that even in Egypt, Jordan, ect, there are 20-30% of them. But that doesn't excuse the fact that the majority of them are in favour of sharia law and death for leaving their religion. And it's not just in the middle east. There have been studies done in the UK that have shown upwards of 40% of Muslims living there are in support of it (people who we're supposed to believe aren't part of this socio-economic... whatever it is).
People are so afraid to criticize religion. All it is is a set of beliefs. They aren't magical. They aren't infallible. They aren't immune to ridicule. You don't need to treat it with any more respect than you would any other set of non religious beliefs. And you certainly don't have to take it as an all or nothing deal. You're allowed to criticize parts of their beliefs while not having an issue with the rest (a more honest stance than the blanket "the religion isn't violent").
Without question, the Quran is a violent book. It preaches violence. You can't deny that. So the only leg you have to stand on is that there are millions of muslims (some of who you know) who don't believe in the violent bits. But another undeniable fact is that the vast majority support the violence. So we've got a violent book being supported by the majority of its faithful, yet we'll pretend there's nothing violent about the religion? It makes no sense to me.
And you can have a shitty belief system and not be a bad person. For all his (admittedly magnified on the forum) poor values, I'm relatively certain that Indy is a good person. I recently watched a documentary called God Loves Uganda (fantastic. Check it out) about the missionaries in Uganda that are completely fucking up their society. Are they doing it maliciously? With the exception of a few, no; they think they're doing good (and even in the case of the few, they think they're doing good). But their shitty morals are having a detrimental effect. Similarly, I'm not saying 80% of muslims are savages. I'm saying that their religion is savage and it absolutely has an affect on a large number of their population. As Sam Harris so clearly pointed out, Islam doesn't have the benefit of a reformed version of their religion (not yet). It is what it is. Take it or leave it
 
It is an interesting article.

And this John Adams quote in the article bears repeating:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext, arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Click to expand...
 
BEAL said:
Middle East does not have the stability, the technology, nor the education as Western countries. So they still cling to bronze age beliefs.
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Bronze Age - spanning different epochs from around 3200-1200BC
Islam - circa 610AD

Forgive me, I had to do this.

Bronze Age beliefs would probably be better than some of the shit around in particular countries. But I don't think that the broad concept of Islam is to blame so much as certain strains of Islam that have arisen since the 19th century. There hasn't been a steady stream of progress or devolution, rather it's been up and down for centuries.
 
In Beal's defense, Islam was just an extension of Christianity, which was just an extension of Judaism. There was little intellectual growth from its Bronze Age ancestry. One could argue Islam was actually a step backward
 
It was derived from the other two religions. In fact a good portion of the Koran is just plagiarized from the other two holy books.
 
The Sad Punk said:
Bronze Age - spanning different epochs from around 3200-1200BC
Islam - circa 610AD

Forgive me, I had to do this.

Bronze Age beliefs would probably be better than some of the shit around in particular countries. But I don't think that the broad concept of Islam is to blame so much as certain strains of Islam that have arisen since the 19th century. There hasn't been a steady stream of progress or devolution, rather it's been up and down for centuries.
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Maybe not Bronze Age like in terms of technology, but certainly with society - especially with women

Then again, the Islamic world was far ahead of Europe during the Middle Ages in science and technology. Now it has switched. I've read plenty of articles where Muslims insist they are superior because of their inventions and developments centuries ago. They also blame the West for not being able to do so now. While it may be true, the West is not to blame for every single problem in their world. I get the impression that there is a lot of victimization going on with Muslims because the world is not going their way.
 
I have been looking at this thread since it began. I hesitate to jump in, I read many things I agree with, or have believed in the past. Lately i find my opinions on religion being more tolerant.

I believe the three great religions are not that great for many people. I also believe they are all connected.

Islam was just an extension of Christianity, which was just an extension of Judaism.
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That's correct with the addition of extension with some re-purposing.

Christianity and Islam are built on the foundation of what we in the west call the Old Testament and to be fair Judaism.

And I don't understand how some people call themselves Christians and say they only follow or need the New Testament, that the Old Testament may just be a book with a lot of fables or allegories.
 
Pearl said:
Then again, the Islamic world was far ahead of Europe during the Middle Ages in science and technology. Now it has switched. I've read plenty of articles where Muslims insist they are superior because of their inventions and developments centuries ago.
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And what do you suppose happened in the Muslim world to cause the collapse of science? Oh, right, you can thank Islam for that
 
There's truth to that, yes. Look at the Taliban only allowing the Quran to be read and banning medical books because it depicts naked bodies. Unbelievable the insanity those extremists are thinking.

My point was some Muslims have too much of the victim mentality. Look at China and India. They once had great civilizations that were hurt by colonialism. Are they committing violence on the West in retaliation? No, they're adapting to the realities of the world. Even the Greeks aren't feeling sorry for themselves that they're no longer creating pillars of civilization as they once did (correct me if I'm wrong). I guess Muslims thinking their religion is superior to everyone else's makes them react as they are now :shrugs:
 
But it wasn't colonialism that stifled their progress; it was their own religious fanaticism. Progress and an intellectually fertile society were nearly instantly stopped in their tracks.
I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, just clarifying that detail :)
In a way, yes, much like the Taliban; But imagine that happening in the west today and you'd have a more accurate understanding of how much of an impact it had
 
Jive Turkey said:
But it wasn't colonialism that stifled their progress; it was their own religious fanaticism. Progress and an intellectually fertile society were nearly instantly stopped in their tracks.
I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, just clarifying that detail :)
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Which is odd because the Islamic world created algebra and the number zero. It discussed non-Islamic philosophy and made advances on astronomy and other sciences. Even Timbuktu had a library of all these things, which the Mali Al-Qaeda burned down recently :(

I don't know if it were fanaticism or colonialism that stopped the Islamic world. Maybe they reached an intellectual limit because of their theocratic society :shrug:

No it might have had to do with Wahabbism, which is the radical version of Islam. It was begun by an imam about 150 years or so ago, and the Saudi royal family endorsed it for power. Because of them, this kind of Islam is being preached worldwide. It's after midnight now, so I gotta get going, but that may be a link.
 
Jive Turkey said:
Nothing to do with religion. Move along folks.

BBC News - Riot police battle Islamists in Dhaka Bangladesh
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The majority of Dhaha are Muslim, so in this example the members of the government and police would probably be majority Muslim. Yet you are insisting that the religion is at fault and not the interpretation of the religion. So practicing Muslims are fighting and arresting rioting Muslims, but you are convinced it's the religion and no other factors? So what's wrong with these practicing Muslims what are part of the government and police force? They don't seem to fit into your black and white argument.

I feel like there's a chicken or the egg conversation going on, most of us are saying it's a conversation about how the chicken is raised or how the egg is cooked, and you are red faced pounding the table yelling with all absolution that it's the egg.
 
How can you say this isn't a religious matter?? Jesus. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears "la la la la la!". You've got a population of highly religious people - people who only want what the Quran is asking of them - rioting against a relatively secular government. The problem is they don't think their government is Islamic enough. You need to open your eyes.
And I'm not red faced (though I guess it helps you to justify your irrationality by projecting it onto me), but you should be red with embarrassment. Your analogy says absolutely nothing substantial about anything (I'm sure you thought it was pretty clever... sorry). Maybe try addressing actual facts instead of making vague, pseudo-intellectual analogies. Actually, this would be the perfect time to relate it all back to the "socio-economic" factors you were talking about the other day

And please stop hiding behind the dishonest phrase "interpreting the religion", as if those people are doing it wrong (again, the majority of them)
 
Even on the sliding scale of secularism, the government is still doing this:

"She said the government had already arrested four bloggers for making "derogatory comments" against the Prophet Muhammad and they would be punished if found guilty. "

And you don't think any of this has to do with religion? Take your head out of the sand, chief. This illustrates perfectly how irrational you are in defense of religion. I'd love to hear all about your "other factors"
 
Jive Turkey said:
But it wasn't colonialism that stifled their progress; it was their own religious fanaticism. Progress and an intellectually fertile society were nearly instantly stopped in their tracks.
I'm not disagreeing with your whole post, just clarifying that detail :)
In a way, yes, much like the Taliban; But imagine that happening in the west today and you'd have a more accurate understanding of how much of an impact it had
Click to expand...

Mmmm... I know you've got your hobby horse and far be it from me to drag you from the saddle, but why did this particular process take the better part of a thousand years?

Because the serious decline in the Islamic world's material and political ascendency (Middle East, Africa, Mughal India; admittedly Spain was long gone by then) mostly post-dates 1500 (not coincidentally when Europe began to become less dependent on the Mediterranean and land routes to Asia). ...Though the earlier (13th C?) Mongol attacks on Baghdad and further west arguably dealt a very heavy blow also. Ancient Rome proved unable to withstand similar assaults from the Huns etc.

The marriage of convenience between the house of Saud and Wahabbist fundamentalism in the 19th century, although unrelated to the above developments (indeed they were mainly antagonistic toward a perceived-to-be insufficiently pious Ottoman Empire), has a lot to answer for.
 
Jive Turkey said:
How can you say this isn't a religious matter?? Jesus. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears "la la la la la!". You've got a population of highly religious people - people who only want what the Quran is asking of them - rioting against a relatively secular government. The problem is they don't think their government is Islamic enough.
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So where is the majority in this particular matter? Why are they not joining this riot against the government? So are the majority in this country doing it wrong and the rioters have it correct? I guess once we have these inconsistencies hashed out we can start to discuss in a civil manner this very black and white issue you've put forth.
 
BVS said:
So where is the majority in this particular matter? Why are they not joining this riot against the government? So are the majority in this country doing it wrong and the rioters have it correct? I guess once we have these inconsistencies hashed out we can start to discuss in a civil manner this very black and white issue you've put forth.
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So because everybody isn't rioting in the streets, you're right? I've shown you the numbers. The majority of muslims support Sharia law. Hell, since this conversation began, I've come across a Canadian study that says over 60% of muslims living in Canada want Sharia law to apply to Muslim communities. 60%! It's amazing that your whole argument consists of saying (and little more) that the people not abiding by the word of the quran are proof that this isn't a religious issue.
When are you going to stop dodging and actually apply your geopolitical reasoning to any of the situations brought up here. You've literally not supplied us with any argument save for vague notions and platitudes. "no it's not" seems to be all you can muster
 
Kieran McConville said:
Mmmm... I know you've got your hobby horse and far be it from me to drag you from the saddle, but why did this particular process take the better part of a thousand years?

Because the serious decline in the Islamic world's material and political ascendency (Middle East, Africa, Mughal India; admittedly Spain was long gone by then) mostly post-dates 1500 (not coincidentally when Europe began to become less dependent on the Mediterranean and land routes to Asia). ...Though the earlier (13th C?) Mongol attacks on Baghdad and further west arguably dealt a very heavy blow also. Ancient Rome proved unable to withstand similar assaults from the Huns etc.

The marriage of convenience between the house of Saud and Wahabbist fundamentalism in the 19th century, although unrelated to the above developments (indeed they were mainly antagonistic toward a perceived-to-be insufficiently pious Ottoman Empire), has a lot to answer for.
Click to expand...

A thousand years? The end of the Golden Age of Islamic Science was some time in the 13th century. Even if we go by your 1500 date, where are you getting 1000 years from??? (and this was all more of an aside and not really relevant anyway)
 
Jive Turkey said:
So because everybody isn't rioting in the streets, you're right? I've shown you the numbers. The majority of muslims support Sharia law.
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Now go and poll those majority of Muslims and see if they agree on what Sharia Law means or if they all agree on the interpretation of these laws. We've had this discussion in here before and there's a large disparity of what these laws mean, if they are literal, or how they are to be upheld amongst Muslim scholars, so how are you to have the absolute answer if those that know the religion can't?

Jive Turkey said:
It's amazing that your whole argument consists of saying (and little more) that the people not abiding by the word of the quran are proof that this isn't a religious issue.
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"Not abiding by the word of Quran"? Come on, so in order to prove your point you're now going to argue the fundamentalists' point of view? This is why your whole premise doesn't stand, you are pretending to have the absolute answers to issues that don't even have absolute answers from within their own communities.
 
BVS said:
"Not abiding by the word of Quran"? Come on, so in order to prove your point you're now going to argue the fundamentalists' point of view?
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As was stated so elegantly in the article that you either didn't bother reading or glossed over, they're called fundamentalists because they're following the fundamentals of the religion. It's not them that have it wrong; it's that the ones who pick and choose what to follow and what to ignore are more secular. Fundamentalism isn't a bastardization of religion, it's religion in its purest form. Your whole premise is that the less religious followers are proof that the religion isn't at fault; it's completely counter intuitive and wrong. I couldn't be happier that there are Muslims who have the common sense and common decency not to follow the quran to the letter (Just the same as I'm glad there are Christians and Jews who do the same). And like everything else in life, there's a sliding scale to which people adhere to religious beliefs. It just so happens that the further away from religion you slide on that scale, the better off people are.
Are you not willing to concede that there are elements to the religion that are causing serious problems?
 
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