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Old 08-10-2013, 09:05 AM   #331
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I think it is time the Left admits that Islam is not playing according to rules...

Chris Hitchens saw that, Richard Dawkins sees it...

This is not about Christianity vs. Islam. This is about Western Civilization and everything we hold dear in the post-Enlightenmnet world.


I feel really badly that average Muslims who go tonwork and love their children have to put up with crap like this.
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:59 AM   #332
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I feel really badly that average Muslims who go tonwork and love their children have to put up with crap like this.
Is there another religion out there (as it is practiced today) that singles out and slaughters non-believers?
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:21 PM   #333
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States are not being held back by Islam, Afghanistan for instance has been a war zone for decades if not for most of the last century or so, I would find that much more pertinent in discussion of a nation's development.

I don't see how we are making the correlation between lack of development and Islam? Saudi Arabia is held back by a dictatorship we are only happy to remain in control of the land's natural resources. In the scheme of things in the middle east I would suggest there are larger structural issues for 'lack of development'. If only we could all be as good as 'western civilisation' able carry on making profits on much of historical ill gotten wealth. Our development came at the price of many others. I am not saying that excludes criticism of anyone but there is a broader context for why much of the middle east is pretty shit place to be, but it isn't really down to Islam or your average Muslim on the street.

At what point in world history did Islam become a limiting factor? How was it a good thing during the the early middle ages and then bad later on? Doctrinal changes happen but there is no universal Islam, it isn't just any one thing, like your Christianity is different from mine, your atheism isn't the same as my atheism. So yes there are certainly strands within Islam that are abhorrent but I do wonder what is the point of this whole sale condemnation of a religion? What do you suggest we do about it?

As an aside on what Dawkin's said, even within context it's fairly daft...the nobel prize has only existed for a century and a bit for the majority of that time only certain upper class white kids got into Cambridge and the like. Might as well say white wealthy bastards have won more nobel prizes than everyone else put together and it would probably be true. There are probably only a few who you would describe as coming from a 'poor' background.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:30 PM   #334
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As far as I understand it, Islam became a rallying point for the Middle East during the decolonization period of the early to mid 1900s. It was a means of reforging identity as the European influence dwindled and eventually collapsed. If we consider that states typically suffer mightily in political and economic terms after a colonial power has abruptly left (not by any fault of their own), one can see how the association between Islam and "limitations" or whatever one wants to call it is made. I've said this before, but I think it's a case of false cause to attribute all or the bulk of the problems in the Middle East to Islam.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:36 PM   #335
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I feel really badly that average Muslims who go tonwork and love their children have to put up with crap like this.
I don't feel bad for them because they have the common sense to pick and choose what parts of their religion they practice. Just like average Christians
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:39 PM   #336
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States are not being held back by Islam, Afghanistan for instance has been a war zone for decades if not for most of the last century or so, I would find that much more pertinent in discussion of a nation's development.
Might want to talk to some people from the UK

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As an aside on what Dawkin's said, even within context it's fairly daft...the nobel prize has only existed for a century and a bit for the majority of that time only certain upper class white kids got into Cambridge and the like. Might as well say white wealthy bastards have won more nobel prizes than everyone else put together and it would probably be true. There are probably only a few who you would describe as coming from a 'poor' background.
There's a shit ton more oil money in the middle east than there is money in the UK. It isn't about money
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:41 PM   #337
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What do you mean I might want to speak to some people in the UK? I live in Manchester.

Where is that money going to in the middle east? I highly doubt it's doing the local population much good in these areas.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:42 PM   #338
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Are you claiming there are no problems in the UK with regard to muslim extremism?

(though I understand if you're more concerned with Chavs than Muslims)
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:44 PM   #339
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Where is that money going to in the middle east? I highly doubt it's doing the local population much good in these areas.
Where is the big money being made by "white wealthy bastards" going? Are a couple Saudis hording all the oil money? You don't think there are wealthy populations of muslims in the same way there are wealthy populations in the west?
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:59 PM   #340
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Don't be silly of course there are wealthy Muslims. Are there as many wealthy Muslims as there are wealthy white folk? Doesn't really matter as most of the countries we are talking about are dictatorships, the money tends to hang around in those elite circles, not much redistribution going on. While redistribution of wealth is pretty crap in Western countries it's nowhere near as bad as it is in the middle east.

I don't think Islamic extremism is a big as problem in the UK as many would like to think, while terrible some of these ideas people espouse are or the attack on the soldier Lee Rigby was, more people still die from traffic accidents, alcohol, domestic abuse, 'normal' murders than any form of terrorism on this soil. We take things way out of proportion and while certain ideas need combating, I don't sit worrying about 'Islamic extremism' when we are still treating our own people and others abroad like crap as well.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:02 PM   #341
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Why is it that people (mostly middle class whites, since we're playing that game) are more than happy to point out Islam carried the torch of knowledge during the middle ages while Christianity was wallowing in its own shit, but suddenly get all defensive if it's even suggested that Islam might be playing a role in the Middle East's current regression into their own dark ages?
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:04 PM   #342
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I don't think Islamic extremism is a big as problem in the UK as many would like to think, while terrible some of these ideas people espouse are or the attack on the soldier Lee Rigby was, more people still die from traffic accidents, alcohol, domestic abuse, 'normal' murders than any form of terrorism on this soil. We take things way out of proportion and while certain ideas need combating, I don't sit worrying about 'Islamic extremism' when we are still treating our own people and others abroad like crap as well.
Is Islamic extremism as big of a problem in the UK and Europe as many believe? That video Jive posted earlier gives the impression that radical Islam is a serious problem and major shit will happen in within 10 years or less.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:08 PM   #343
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Don't be silly of course there are wealthy Muslims. Are there as many wealthy Muslims as there are wealthy white folk? Doesn't really matter as most of the countries we are talking about are dictatorships, the money tends to hang around in those elite circles, not much redistribution going on. While redistribution of wealth is pretty crap in Western countries it's nowhere near as bad as it is in the middle east.

I don't think Islamic extremism is a big as problem in the UK as many would like to think, while terrible some of these ideas people espouse are or the attack on the soldier Lee Rigby was, more people still die from traffic accidents, alcohol, domestic abuse, 'normal' murders than any form of terrorism on this soil. We take things way out of proportion and while certain ideas need combating, I don't sit worrying about 'Islamic extremism' when we are still treating our own people and others abroad like crap as well.
My point is just, there is more than enough money in circles of the middle east (not all the countries are poor shit holes) that the "they're all poor, that's why there's no scientific innovation" claim doesn't hold. Am I saying Islam is solely to blame? No. But it doesn't help and is probably one of a small handful of reasons.

You're right, the terrorism caused by fanatics is given undue weight in the grand scheme of things. But there's more to it than just the occasional bombing or beheading (if that reads as facetious, it wasn't intended). There are other ways in which much larger populations of hard core muslims are trying to subvert the system.

But even aside from all the domestic problems, we should still care about issues on the world scale. If not just for humanitarian reasons, then because we don't live in a bubble
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:13 PM   #344
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Why is it that people (mostly middle class whites, since we're playing that game) are more than happy to point out Islam carried the torch of knowledge during the middle ages while Christianity was wallowing in its own shit, but suddenly get all defensive if it's even suggested that Islam might be playing a role in the Middle East's current regression into their own dark ages?

But i'm not defending Islam as a religious philosophy, I find it pretty distasteful in general. It's just got very little to do with why the middle east is the way it is. Unless you address the actual reasons for why it's a hell hole then your doing nothing at all to be useful. You think if they were suddenly all atheists or Christians or whatever that the area would be any better?
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:14 PM   #345
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You think if they were suddenly all atheists... that the area would be any better?
Honestly?
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