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Old 04-30-2013, 10:27 PM   #16
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People need to stop making excuses for shitty belief systems in the name of correctness
But you're singling one out over another, which in reality you would get the same results if either religion were the government.

In essence what you are really trying to say is that No Religion = Peace.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:33 PM   #17
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I'm singling that one out because that's where they're pulling their beliefs from. Would you give redneck hillbilly white supremacists the same out? That it's the environment's fault, not the ideology?

And I would never argue no religion = peace. I would argue religion = people doing shitty things they wouldn't do otherwise
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:57 PM   #18
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Would you give redneck hillbilly white supremacists the same out? That it's the environment's fault, not the ideology?
I'm not sure what "out" you are talking about. I guess the reason this analogy doesn't work for me is that I believe the environment breeds this particular ideology. The Muslim faith can and does thrive outside of this violent theocratic setting. But I don't know if redneck hillbilly white supremacism survives outside of its environmental issues.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:24 PM   #19
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So what needs to happen?
I'm not sure. But we need to recognize that it is a religious issue, Islam is an especially violent religion, and all this talk of 'the religion of peace/it's not the religion, it's the environment' is sticking ones head in the ground
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:25 PM   #20
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Insert my usual economic/environmental determinism here
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:28 PM   #21
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I mean, what exactly is meant by 'it's the environment'? What economic conditions lead to "if you leave Islam, you should be put to death"?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:31 PM   #22
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I mean, what exactly is meant by 'it's the environment'? What economic conditions lead to "if you leave Islam, you should be put to death"?
Colonialism, (semi-)post-colonial resentment of the West, and, perhaps most critically, seeming lack of incentives to behave like "the West" borne by a century and a half's worth of the aforementioned issues. And social pressure borne by that lack of incentives.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:32 PM   #23
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What separates a country like India from a country like Jordan?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:34 PM   #24
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Colonialism, (semi-)post-colonial resentment of the West, and, perhaps most critically, seeming lack of incentives to behave like "the West" borne by a century and a half's worth of the aforementioned issues. And social pressure borne by that lack of incentives.
The death penalty for apostasy certainly didn't come about in the past century and a half. And who said anything about leaving Islam for any western ideology?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:34 PM   #25
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I'm not sure. But we need to recognize that it is a religious issue, Islam is an especially violent religion, and all this talk of 'the religion of peace/it's not the religion, it's the environment' is sticking ones head in the ground
IF it is a religious issue, then how is it that so many devout Muslims can live a peaceful life devoid of any violent tendencies, yet environmentally impacted people like domestic abusers and racists take education and training in order to live peaceful lives devoid of hate?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:39 PM   #26
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The death penalty for apostasy certainly didn't come about in the past century and a half.
Are you not aware of secular societies having death penalties for treason(which could just be a matter of speech)?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:43 PM   #27
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What separates a country like India from a country like Jordan?
Jordan's not the best example to use there, because of its prosperity relative to, say, Syria, Lebanon, Afghaniatan, Iran, Yemen, and the like. But, regardless, India is a society on the upswing. It did face the sort of anti-colonial resentment that is alive and well in the Islamic world today, but the British were wise enough to yield to it. Today, India has opportunity in its interaction with the west. Which is very different from the Middle East.

Of course, some (Indy and possibly you) will claim that I have the causal chain reversed - that it is India's values causing its relative prosperity. Perhaps I am too fixed in my semi-deterministic views. And certainly values like radical Islam do not do wonders for economic growth. However, I think that the causal chain starts with the environment. Maybe I just like to avoid social darwinism, but it has been incredibly well demonstrated over the past century how malleable nominal beliefs (such as religion) are in how one lives when faced with different circumstances. Evolutionary psychology, situationism, and behavioral economics tie right into this.

This is a shitty post, but I'm on my phone and I don't want to write the stock dissertation that I write once every quarter or so on this subject on this forum.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:57 PM   #28
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Jordan's not the best example to use there, because of its prosperity relative to, say, Syria, Lebanon, Afghaniatan, Iran, Yemen, and the like.
This is exactly why it is a fine example. And they were one of the worst offenders!
And to write off colonialism in India is unfair when colonialism is one of your main points.
Religion is the difference
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:58 PM   #29
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IF it is a religious issue, then how is it that so many devout Muslims can live a peaceful life devoid of any violent tendencies, yet environmentally impacted people like domestic abusers and racists take education and training in order to live peaceful lives devoid of hate?
Nobody is claiming it's 100% of muslims. Just 85% or so in some countries.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:02 AM   #30
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Are you not aware of secular societies having death penalties for treason(which could just be a matter of speech)?
Do you hear about them bashing people's heads in with rocks very often? or ever?
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