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Old 05-17-2013, 11:22 AM   #256
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That's never a good idea, is it?

I need to talk to Gaf and Peef to find out how to do that right
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:24 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
1. There was no indecisiveness about her statement; she firmly believes that there is a god.

2. By her definition, I'd say she's Deist, but labels are whatever.



Hahaha this reads like one of Iron Horse's hit and run bumper sticker posts. The distinction really isn't that simple because violence certainly has been committed by those of non-religious affiliation towards Christians or whoever.

Cobbler used the term incorrectly, but you know.
Quality posts. And ya, deist doesn't come to easily to the mind of a drunkard at 4:30 am. I do agree with you. I still believe the term "militant atheist" is kinda hilarious, but who uses a typewriter??? A fucking hipster, maybe.

But the general point still stands. What damage has a militant atheist ever caused, besides hurting someone's feelings in FYM?

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Anyhow a typewriter can do a lot of damage, especially if it's one of those industrial-grade old manual ones.
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Oh yeah, dropping a typewriter from a story or two up would put an end to that sanctimony, no sweat.

We need to have more drunk FYM debates in the future.
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Who said anything about dropping?
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It's just an idea I had.
These are quality posts
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:27 AM   #258
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OK, it is true that violence has been committed by non religious types. But did they commit this crime because of their lack of belief or some other idealogy? The example that always gets thrown out is Stalin. Stalin was an atheist, look how many people he killed!!!! Stalin did what he did because of his political idealogy, there's no proof/evidence that atheism was casual in the oppression of millions of people.

Jive's point stands. A militant atheist argues a lot, maybe is even a bit of a prick in doing so. You may get your feelings hurt, but that's about it. Can you say the same of a militant muslim or ask any abortion doctor if they fear an atheist over a militant christian.

Not THAT long ago non believers (or if you believed in the wrong God) were tortured, killed, etc for speaking out. Not sure I really feel any sympathy if feelings get hurt considering the past history of religion and it's treatment against the "heathens".
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:39 AM   #259
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Jive, you have officially pissed me off. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt here, because you seemed to be easy to debate with on FYM, but I will no longer think so.

You have no right to tell me who I am. You have no right to tell me how to live my life, how to define myself, how to feel, and how to think. You have no right to try to control me. If you are unable to realize that you are doing this, then you need to stop drinking, develop more self-awareness and realize how you affect others.

And if you're going to be such an expert on religion and non-belief, you should know exactly what an agnostic is.

Don't try to laugh it off as me over-reacting. I'm not insulted that you disagree with my beliefs. I am insulted by your insistence on trying to tell me who I am, which basically you trying to control me. That's pretty much abusive, even if its only in an Internet forum.

I'm done with this thread and you.

And I just want to add that for you to say that you mean to be an ass is just you saying I am being an ass and I don't care.
I've done my best to step on egg shells for you, so I guess this doesn't really bother me all that much. If anything, it sort of strengthens my position that, had we been trying to define your political position, you wouldn't have gotten mad, but since this is religion, we aren't allowed to talk about it. Like it or not, the way you choose to view the whole topic has a definition. Similar to that thread months back about Sex and the City lady trying to make up her own definition of her Lesbianism, it's irrelevant. Call yourself a Pagan if you want; doesn't make it true

I guess I'm supposed to be offended or ashamed because I need to "stop drinking" as if I'm constantly drunk and posting here? Not in the least. I'm actually fairly surprised how on point I managed to keep (I do appreciate Lemel and McConville calling me out, however. Good times).

And all this nonesense about trying to "control" you, telling you who you are, being abusive really don't mean anything. It's a complete overreaction on your part. If you don't want to continue with the thread, that's fine. But ask yourself if you'd do the same had I said "I feel like you're more of a neo conservative"
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:58 AM   #260
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You keep equating politics and religion as if they occupy the same space in a person or serve the same purposes. Maybe you're being purposefully obtuse, but surely you can understand why people take religion more personally than politics.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:04 PM   #261
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You keep equating politics and religion as if they occupy the same space in a person or serve the same purposes. Maybe you're being purposefully obtuse, but surely you can understand why people take religion more personally than politics.
I think they're totally different. To me, someone's political beliefs are about their present and future on Earth, while many exhibit faith in religion/God because of a desire to believe in an afterlife. In that respect, it's much more of a personal aspect for many people, which is why I respect what they believe, even if I don't myself.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:24 PM   #262
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If religion were solely or even primarily about the afterlife, you wouldn't see nearly as much effort from institutional religion to influence politics and influence the behavior of society writ-large. And I understand the whole pre-millennial vantage point, but even that had heavy political overtones.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:26 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
You keep equating politics and religion as if they occupy the same space in a person or serve the same purposes. Maybe you're being purposefully obtuse, but surely you can understand why people take religion more personally than politics.
I refuse to believe someone's ideology in untouchable. Not purposefully obtuse (not obtuse at all), just perfectly rational. I don't hold any beliefs that I think nobody can question.

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I think they're totally different. To me, someone's political beliefs are about their present and future on Earth, while many exhibit faith in religion/God because of a desire to believe in an afterlife. In that respect, it's much more of a personal aspect for many people, which is why I respect what they believe, even if I don't myself.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.
You make sense.
But why can't someone discuss, refute, or question any of it without being labeled militant or strident? I'll not be told that someone has a belief that I need to show a disproportionate level of respect to. Pearl's response is the perfect example of how irrationally defensive people can get over what amounts to a fairly benign series of posts
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:29 PM   #264
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If religion were solely or even primarily about the afterlife, you wouldn't see nearly as much effort from institutional religion to influence politics and influence the behavior of society writ-large. And I understand the whole pre-millennial vantage point, but even that had heavy political overtones.
True, but I'm not referring to organized or institutional religion, per se. What the Pope does to influence politics and society is what he does, but the average faith-based person has his/her own reasons for believing, and very often it's at a more personal level than political beliefs.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:31 PM   #265
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I refuse to believe someone's ideology in untouchable.
I never said it was untouchable, but you keep complaining that people take criticism about their religion more personally than criticism about their politics, as if the two are on the same level.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:33 PM   #266
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True, but I'm not referring to organized or institutional religion, per se. What the Pope does to influence politics and society is what he does, but the average faith-based person has his/her own reasons for believing, and very often it's at a more personal level than political beliefs.
I see your point. The counterpoint would be that people who identify as one faith or another, in the US at least, tend to vote along very similar lines. I understand that might be a false correlation, though.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:34 PM   #267
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You make sense.
But why can't someone discuss, refute, or question any of it without being labeled militant or strident? I'll not be told that someone has a belief that I need to show a disproportionate level of respect to. Pearl's response is the perfect example of how irrationally defensive people can get over what amounts to a fairly benign series of posts
You can discuss, refute, or question just about anything, and if it's done in a respectful manner, I can guarantee you will never be labelled a militant.

Pearl's "defensiveness" reflects more with how you engage with people on this topic than on her personally.

You're unapologetic about it, and that's fine, but it's not a huge surprise that people who disagree with your viewpoint react the way they do.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:40 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
You can discuss, refute, or question just about anything, and if it's done in a respectful manner, I can guarantee you will never be labelled a militant.

Pearl's "defensiveness" reflects more with how you engage with people on this topic than on her personally.

You're unapologetic about it, and that's fine, but it's not a huge surprise that people who disagree with your viewpoint react the way they do.
But I was more than fair to Pearl, gave her the benefit of the doubt, tip toed around, and yet she still flew off the handle. I mean, read what I wrote. There was nothing offensive about it (and I can be so much more offensive! ).
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:48 PM   #269
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I consider myself a Christian, and I've followed this thread from the first page, albeit I haven't had the time to be involved in it. I see less than no problem with what Jive has been saying, or how he's been saying it. People DO treat religion as an untouchable topic. "It sounds like you're more of an agnostic," is controlling an abusive? I can't even grasp the logic someone would have to have to conclude that.

Yes, religion is a touchy, personal subject. But so are some aspects of politics. I can't imagine someone getting outraged if someone told them "it seems like you're more of a pro-choicer than a hard-line pro-lifer." No, if they disagreed with the label, they'd explain how their views differ from pro-choice views.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:49 PM   #270
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I never said it was untouchable, but you keep complaining that people take criticism about their religion more personally than criticism about their politics, as if the two are on the same level.
I totally get what you guys are saying. I just feel like the defensiveness comes from a lack of confidence.
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