The Religion of Peace? - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-08-2013, 07:11 AM   #151
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
Yeah but there's more to Islam than killing people. There are also the injunctions to prayer, to charity, to modesty (and not just in dress), the prohibitions on ursury...
I'm not denying that (see: shit sandwich¹)
__________________

__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 09:58 AM   #152
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
And in regard to metaphor, I'll add this:

When there is no evidence that a piece of writing is meant to be interpreted as metaphor, it's on you to prove otherwise (I've decided that the bible is meant to be read as a satire. Anyone not reading it as a satire is twisting its original intent). As we've seen throughout history, religious text only becomes metaphor in light of contradictory indisputable evidence. 500 years ago, it wasn't metaphor to believe in a first human. But now that we know how evolution works and how the biology works, Adam and Eve have been relegated to metaphor. 500 years ago, it wasn't metaphor to believe god created the world (which was the center of the universe) in 7 days. Now that we know more about cosmology and know the Big Bang happened, "god created the world in 7 days" and the Geocentric Universe are relegated to metaphor. 150 years ago, it wasn't metaphor to believe that god created humans, as we are, in his image. Now that we know about Natural Selection and again, evolution, "god created humans in his image" is relegated to metaphor. All these things today, people would argue don't disprove the bible; they're meant to be read as metaphor! But no. they weren't originally meant to be read as metaphor. Metaphor is the retreat of religion in the face of evidence. And the more the evidence keeps stacking up, the more metaphor we seem to find in religious teachings. So your arbitrary decision to label verses of your choosing as 'metaphor' is completely that: arbitrary
Jive, I don't know what books or authors you've read regarding religion, but I suggest reading "The Case for God: by Karen Armstrong. I know I've brought up this book before and even what she said about interpreting the Bible several times, but I just want to reiterate that she said the creation story was seen as allegory until recently. And she's well respected when it comes to discussing faith and religion.

As for religion being the cause of violence, sexism, etc., I wouldn't put the blame solely on religion. There was misogyny in Ancient Greece and Rome before Christianity came around. FGM dates back to before the Roman Empire. The Chinese practiced foot binding for centuries without the pope or an imam's decree. Violence and war is practically human nature. Religion may have exacerbated these problems, but it wasn't like religion introduced them. Human beings are an irrational specie, we'll do crazy crap for numerous reasons.
__________________

__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 12:47 PM   #153
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 10:31 AM
I haven't read any if her stuff. I'll look into it. I'm not sure how impartial a former nun can be, however. Do you remember any specifics?
As far as making a case for god goes, I'm not sure she'd be presenting us with anything other than the usual tropes the Dinesh D'Souza's of the world constantly do.

And I've never claimed religion is the source off all of societies woes.
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 01:21 PM   #154
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,439
Local Time: 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Jive, I don't know what books or authors you've read regarding religion, but I suggest reading "The Case for God: by Karen Armstrong. I know I've brought up this book before and even what she said about interpreting the Bible several times, but I just want to reiterate that she said the creation story was seen as allegory until recently. And she's well respected when it comes to discussing faith and religion.
I haven't read the book, but the claim that allegorical interpretations of Judeo-Christian scriptures are the historical norm is disputed by numerous medieval and early modern efforts from the Catholic Church to censure astrologists and philosophers who were challenging the narrative of Genesis. And Jive, yes, Ms Armstrong is far from an impartial observer of religious history.

I'm struggling here to see what is wrong with Jive's statement that "fundamentalism" is best defined as strict adherence to the literal word of scripture. I've read a lot of religious scholarship, and that seems to be the accepted definition there as well. I'm also with Jive that it is giving the authors of religious scripture a bit too much benefit of the doubt to say that they wrote initially with an allegorical or metaphorical purpose. Is it possible that, for example, the author of Luke saw Jesus's resurrection as a rhetorical point? Maybe, but I would think it is more likely that the author was looking to present that "supernatural" occurrence as historical narrative, as ancient historians had a tendency to do.

My take on this whole discussion is that institutional religion can often be a conduit for extremist tendencies rather than the root cause. Historically speaking, both Christianity and Islam initially spread among marginalized groups in society - people looking for some kind of voice. I think we still see this today in terms of religiously-motivated terrorism, but the people primarily at fault there, in my opinion at least, are the cell organizers who prey on people's frustrations through appeals to religious devotion. Similarly, much of the hard-line attitudes involving apostasy in that link Jive initially posted can be attributed to Sharia governments who use Islam as a means of simultaneously oppressing people politically and giving them a (what I would see as) false sense of empowerment through adherence to Islamic scripture.

All this is to say that I see any organized religion as a conduit for or facilitator of extremist behavior, and for that it deserves criticism. But I would not say it is the root cause.
__________________
iron yuppie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 01:36 PM   #155
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,883
Local Time: 10:31 AM
This is the most interesting discussion produced in FYM in years. Really enjoying reading this. (This is sincere, by the way.)
__________________
PhilsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 02:15 PM   #156
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey
I haven't read any if her stuff. I'll look into it. I'm not sure how impartial a former nun can be, however. Do you remember any specifics?
As far as making a case for god goes, I'm not sure she'd be presenting us with anything other than the usual tropes the Dinesh D'Souza's of the world constantly do.

And I've never claimed religion is the source off all of societies woes.
She was a nun, but became disillusioned and left, ending up with years in doubt. She now considers herself simply a monotheist with no religious affiliation.

And please don't jump to conclusions that someone is a conspiracy wacko because they defend God. It sounds judgmental based on bias. Her book explores where atheism came from, how it developed and how religious persecution led to it for some. While her book leans toward theism and raises an eyebrow at Harris and Hitchens, she's not condemning atheists to hell. She has sympathy because she was once like them.
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 03:56 PM   #157
War Child
 
Caleb8844's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Local Time: 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
This is the most interesting discussion produced in FYM in years. Really enjoying reading this. (This is sincere, by the way.)
Seconded.
__________________
Caleb8844 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 04:36 PM   #158
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
This is the most interesting discussion produced in FYM in years. Really enjoying reading this. (This is sincere, by the way.)
It has been awhile since we've seen a discussion like this - one we can learn and share thoughts with each other.
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #159
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post

I'm struggling here to see what is wrong with Jive's statement that "fundamentalism" is best defined as strict adherence to the literal word of scripture.
I'm not sure that was the issue people had, at least that's not the issue I had with it. My issue was with him calling that the 'purest' form of religion and everyone else was just watering it down. I think it's very difficult when an outsider claims with absolution the intent of texts when even scholars who have dedicated large chunks of their lives to understanding their religions don't even always agree on intents.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 05:56 PM   #160
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
iron yuppie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,439
Local Time: 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
My issue was with him calling that the 'purest' form of religion and everyone else was just watering it down. I think it's very difficult when an outsider claims with absolution the intent of texts when even scholars who have dedicated large chunks of their lives to understanding their religions don't even always agree on intents.
Well yeah, that's an unanswerable question, because in my understanding of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition or whatever one wants to call it, there has always been significant tension between the dictates of the institution and the practices of those who claim adherence. Institutional Christianity for a long while tried to stamp out any deviation from those dictates - I'm not as familiar with Muslim history, but it wouldn't surprise me if Sharia countries tried and try to do the same. The Sunni-Shi'ite tension would suggest persecution of unorthodox practices as well. "Purity" in religion might just come down to whoever has the power to define it at any given moment.
__________________
iron yuppie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 06:10 PM   #161
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I'm not sure that was the issue people had, at least that's not the issue I had with it. My issue was with him calling that the 'purest' form of religion and everyone else was just watering it down. I think it's very difficult when an outsider claims with absolution the intent of texts when even scholars who have dedicated large chunks of their lives to understanding their religions don't even always agree on intents.
I didn't say "watered down" I said "more secular".

I'm getting kinda tired of you coming in with no intent of exchanging ideas, then feigning outrage and leaving with a wavey-face when you don't want to address anything, only to reappear a page or two later when the discussion has moved on.
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 06:32 PM   #162
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iron yuppie View Post

My take on this whole discussion is that institutional religion can often be a conduit for extremist tendencies rather than the root cause. Historically speaking, both Christianity and Islam initially spread among marginalized groups in society - people looking for some kind of voice. I think we still see this today in terms of religiously-motivated terrorism, but the people primarily at fault there, in my opinion at least, are the cell organizers who prey on people's frustrations through appeals to religious devotion. Similarly, much of the hard-line attitudes involving apostasy in that link Jive initially posted can be attributed to Sharia governments who use Islam as a means of simultaneously oppressing people politically and giving them a (what I would see as) false sense of empowerment through adherence to Islamic scripture.

All this is to say that I see any organized religion as a conduit for or facilitator of extremist behavior, and for that it deserves criticism. But I would not say it is the root cause.
I don't necessarily disagree with this. But I would ask, is the religion that we see today the same religion that was created at the time marginalized people were looking for a voice? Do we even have many non institutionalized accounts of proto-Christianity for example? The picked through, censored, omitted, added to, made up, creatively written, canonized version of the bible we have today is Christianity. It may have started off as a small band of the downtrodden trying to better themselves and society, but at some point -I'm guessing around the mid 4th century- it went from being Christianity to Christianity™ and that is essentially what we have to work with. Organized religion has always been about population control, so when it's said that a theocracy is misusing religion to control its people, really, it's just using it for what it was originally intended to be used for.
I'm trying to think of a modern parallel to help illustrate my point... I might have to get back to you on that.

And please excuse me if this is only semi coherent; long day at work and my brain is running at half speed. I hope you're able to get what I'm trying to say none the less
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 06:36 PM   #163
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
She was a nun, but became disillusioned and left, ending up with years in doubt. She now considers herself simply a monotheist with no religious affiliation.

And please don't jump to conclusions that someone is a conspiracy wacko because they defend God. It sounds judgmental based on bias. Her book explores where atheism came from, how it developed and how religious persecution led to it for some. While her book leans toward theism and raises an eyebrow at Harris and Hitchens, she's not condemning atheists to hell. She has sympathy because she was once like them.
Oh no, I wouldn't accuse someone of being wacko for believing in god. My Nana isn't a wacko. Pretty sure my parents probably believe in god. I'm just questioning how objective she could be.

"where atheism came from" shouldn't be a thing. It's a natural state. It comes from being born

And I have a man crush on Sam Harris.
__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 06:56 PM   #164
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post

And I have a man crush on Sam Harris.
it's not like you have to choose between him and Karen Armstrong
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 07:00 PM   #165
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Jive Turkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,646
Local Time: 10:31 AM
hahahaha
__________________

__________________
Jive Turkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com