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Old 05-07-2013, 11:24 PM   #136
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They are are in fact not Christian at all. Their every word and action flies in the face of the founder's preaching.

Well, according to you.

Which *is* a fairly fundamental problem with religion -- all religion -- itself.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:26 PM   #137
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There was a bit of discussion on this in a thread a few weeks back. As I said there, and at the risk of Ashley coming in and verbally beating the shit out of me , I contend that those not adhering strictly to the fundamentals of a religion are living a more secular life. I was pleased to read this in the article Beal posted a few pages back:

"I also understand that extremism in any ideology isn't a distortion of that ideology. It is an informed, steadfast adherence to its fundamentals, hence the term 'fundamentalism.'"
Maybe, but that doesn't make a person less Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Sikh or whatever they may be. It also doesn't make them less likely to believe in a God(s).
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:35 PM   #138
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That is precisely the point I've been contesting. It simply isn't necessarily so. Some crank outfit like the Westboro Baptist Church - to pluck an example out of the air - are not fundamental adherents of Christianity. They are are in fact not Christian at all. Their every word and action flies in the face of the founder's preaching.
Just because they're crack pots doesn't mean they have to be fundamentalists.
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:57 PM   #139
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There's no evidence that any of this is meant to be metaphorical.
How do you prove metaphorical intent?

You single out one religion, why? Do you realize the OT asks for "rebellious sons" to be stoned to death? And why just the son, what about the daughter, how come they don't lay out the full road map? Shit, what are those "purest form" simpletons supposed to do? "Punishable by death", oh that only has to mean by man and not by God, I'm so glad you have deciphered all of these religions for us.

The truth is that you know little about the certain religions, you just want to insult the intelligence of those that believe and characterize those that distort as the "true believers". Your approach is the intellectual dishonesty that you are accusing others of having.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:01 AM   #140
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Well, according to you.

Which *is* a fairly fundamental problem with religion -- all religion -- itself.

Well no, come on... I know I'm veering close to a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, but do Christ's recorded teachings seem to you to advocate the lack of charity and abundance of hatred that the likes of Westboro (or Falwell after 9/11) exhibit? There are ambiguities in religion but it doesn't mean just anything.

I'd say the same for the, perhaps less bigoted but certainly more avaricious, 'Prosperity Gospel' types. They're free to call themselves Christian, but I say they are its exact antithesis.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:11 AM   #141
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How do you prove metaphorical intent?

You single out one religion, why? Do you realize the OT asks for "rebellious sons" to be stoned to death? And why just the son, what about the daughter, how come they don't lay out the full road map? Shit, what are those "purest form" simpletons supposed to do? "Punishable by death", oh that only has to mean by man and not by God, I'm so glad you have deciphered all of these religions for us.

The truth is that you know little about the certain religions, you just want to insult the intelligence of those that believe and characterize those that distort as the "true believers". Your approach is the intellectual dishonesty that you are accusing others of having.
I thought we were finished talking like assholes? Guess not.

And you've only seen me criticize one religion in here? Interesting
Why the sons and not the daughters? Because religion has a long and well documented tradition of sexism.
"punishable by death"? Where's this phrase you're citing?
Once again, there is no distortion in the fundamentalism we're talking about. Give it up with your intellectual dishonesty argument. Stop defending "religion". I thought you were leaving anyway?
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:21 AM   #142
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But you didn't answer my first question, how do you prove metaphorical intent?
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:26 AM   #143
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Well no, come on... I know I'm veering close to a 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, but do Christ's recorded teachings seem to you to advocate the lack of charity and abundance of hatred that the likes of Westboro (or Falwell after 9/11) exhibit? There are ambiguities in religion but it doesn't mean just anything.

I'd say the same for the, perhaps less bigoted but certainly more avaricious, 'Prosperity Gospel' types. They're free to call themselves Christian, but I say they are its exact antithesis.
So because these groups don't follow the recorded teachings of Christianity, they're the antithesis of Christianity... but when Muslims follow the recorded teachings of the Quran, they're..... the antithesis of Islam?

And defending religion is one big No True Scotsman fallacy
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:28 AM   #144
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But you didn't answer my first question, how do you prove metaphorical intent?
Because we're not talking about parables, we're talking about direct direction. As I've stated multiple times in this thread... like I seem to be doing a lot of with you.

Still here, are ya?
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:55 AM   #145
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Because we're not talking about parables, we're talking about direct direction. As I've stated multiple times in this thread... like I seem to be doing a lot of with you.

Still here, are ya?
You are basically proving INDY's point about athiests. Thanks
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:57 AM   #146
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You are basically proving INDY's point about athiests. Thanks
And what would that be, BVS?

I gotta say, I think your tactic of trying to use phrases I've used in the past against me and bringing up Indy at every opportunity is amusing
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:04 AM   #147
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And in regard to metaphor, I'll add this:

When there is no evidence that a piece of writing is meant to be interpreted as metaphor, it's on you to prove otherwise (I've decided that the bible is meant to be read as a satire. Anyone not reading it as a satire is twisting its original intent). As we've seen throughout history, religious text only becomes metaphor in light of contradictory indisputable evidence. 500 years ago, it wasn't metaphor to believe in a first human. But now that we know how evolution works and how the biology works, Adam and Eve have been relegated to metaphor. 500 years ago, it wasn't metaphor to believe god created the world (which was the center of the universe) in 7 days. Now that we know more about cosmology and know the Big Bang happened, "god created the world in 7 days" and the Geocentric Universe are relegated to metaphor. 150 years ago, it wasn't metaphor to believe that god created humans, as we are, in his image. Now that we know about Natural Selection and again, evolution, "god created humans in his image" is relegated to metaphor. All these things today, people would argue don't disprove the bible; they're meant to be read as metaphor! But no. they weren't originally meant to be read as metaphor. Metaphor is the retreat of religion in the face of evidence. And the more the evidence keeps stacking up, the more metaphor we seem to find in religious teachings. So your arbitrary decision to label verses of your choosing as 'metaphor' is completely that: arbitrary
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:33 AM   #148
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But the premise you're basing the points on is not accurate. You claim that fundamentalists practice the purest form of religion, but that is simply not something that is provable. I'm sure the fundamentalists agree with you, but I doubt you would get the same consensus if you were to poll a roomful of religious scholars, priests, imams, etc.

The Quran says lots of things, as do all holy books, but I don't believe any of them say "only those who follow everything in this book literally are true believers."
And I know this is an old post, but I meant to add this:

If you're right, and the fundamentalist reading of any holy, and in this case, disproportionately violent, text is not the way the author intended, then it is at best grossly irresponsible. I'm not sure that's much of a consolation
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:35 AM   #149
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And so as not to look like a hypocrite question dodger


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Why do you hate cats so much?
I don't hate cats! Mine sleeps on the pillow beside me
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:14 AM   #150
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So because these groups don't follow the recorded teachings of Christianity, they're the antithesis of Christianity... but when Muslims follow the recorded teachings of the Quran, they're..... the antithesis of Islam?

And defending religion is one big No True Scotsman fallacy
Yeah but there's more to Islam than killing people. There are also the injunctions to prayer, to charity, to modesty (and not just in dress), the prohibitions on ursury...
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