The post-Christian West? - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-18-2009, 06:01 PM   #31
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 03:27 AM
coemgen, do you think that you could get that same community feeling outside of a church context? Obviously aside from group worship, heh.

For example, my parents socialize extensively with members of their ethnic group of immigrants. All the benefits that you've described, they also get, but without religious subtext or overtones. They've had their friends re-roof their house for free, or put in new tiles, or help out when my grandmother died, and so on. I don't think that they could have had a better support system through any religious affiliation, to be honest. The people are equally as welcoming, equally as devoted to each other and so on.

I stopped going to Church a long time ago, and frankly, I don't think I'm missing anything. I wasn't benefiting in any way and I sat there thinking that the people are terribly out of touch and have nothing to say to me that I find interesting in any way. Like Lies, I don't feel a need to have a religious affiliation, and I think sometimes for religious people it's very difficult to understand and accept that we're truly not lacking for anything in our lives or not missing anything either. As somebody who has done it both ways (religious and agnostic), I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is no desire in me to ever return to any kind of organized religion.
__________________

__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 06:03 PM   #32
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,297
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Isn't that what Grace is all about?
A very Christian-centric view, of course. Actually it's really a Protestant Christian view, since Catholics do not peddle the concept of grace in this manner, generally speaking.

Most people in this world have no regard for what you consider to be the concept of Grace.
__________________

__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 06:14 PM   #33
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 01:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
coemgen, do you think that you could get that same community feeling outside of a church context? Obviously aside from group worship, heh.
.
Umm, I do. Absolutely.
I know I'm not Kevin, but yes.

I don't think Christ cares where or how charity is given-like He's keeping a score card with a matrix attached to it.

Although most Protestants don't believe in works some do, many claim works are as filthy rags etc-taking a scripture out of context.
Catholics on the other hand believe in works, along with Grace.

Some Chistian denominations such as Mormons believe in Grace and Works-that they're inseperable: and the two are not confined to a building or organization.

<>
__________________
diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 07:41 PM   #34
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coemgen View Post
Who's song is that?
It's by The Proclaimers. I used to listen to them when I was a kid (like 8 yrs old) because my mom did, and I *think* that they are one of those groups that are Christians but do not appreciate being labeled a "Christian group" (you know, like another certain band that some people here might like ).
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2009, 07:47 PM   #35
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I stopped going to Church a long time ago, and frankly, I don't think I'm missing anything. I wasn't benefiting in any way and I sat there thinking that the people are terribly out of touch and have nothing to say to me that I find interesting in any way. Like Lies, I don't feel a need to have a religious affiliation, and I think sometimes for religious people it's very difficult to understand and accept that we're truly not lacking for anything in our lives or not missing anything either. As somebody who has done it both ways (religious and agnostic), I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is no desire in me to ever return to any kind of organized religion.
This is exactly how I have come to feel, and I should say I am generally one to give others the benefit of the doubt. I am not one that had an angst-y adolescence and went out looking for reasons to renounce how I was raised and hate God, not at all. Quite the opposite, the more I looked deeper, the more I was inclined to step back. When I think back over the past 8 years or so, the most spiritual and thought-provoking experiences, conversations, and lectures I've been part of have not taken place in any church or any organized group of church people (though many of the people are church going folk). I guess I can't explain it any more than I can't help or control how I feel, that's just how it is. My personal belief is that a God exists and that he is self-evident in creation. One of the things I have struggled with is that while I believe in the doctrine of General Revelation and accept the doctrine of Special Revelation I just cannot accept that the later is necessary for salvation. To me that is so wrong that it literally makes my blood pressure rise. As for as the church community, some people are more spiritual than others; some people need a support system that is specific to their religion and spirituality. I just don't. At least not right now.

I have no problem accepting that this will likely change if and when I have kids. Even if I have some issues with doctrine and how it effects people's actions, I'm thankful for how the church community helped raise me and pointed me straight forward regardless of what I choose to believe in the end and I wouldn't want to deny that of my future kids just because I take an issue with this or that.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 10:59 AM   #36
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
coemgen, do you think that you could get that same community feeling outside of a church context? Obviously aside from group worship, heh.

For example, my parents socialize extensively with members of their ethnic group of immigrants. All the benefits that you've described, they also get, but without religious subtext or overtones. They've had their friends re-roof their house for free, or put in new tiles, or help out when my grandmother died, and so on. I don't think that they could have had a better support system through any religious affiliation, to be honest. The people are equally as welcoming, equally as devoted to each other and so on.

I stopped going to Church a long time ago, and frankly, I don't think I'm missing anything. I wasn't benefiting in any way and I sat there thinking that the people are terribly out of touch and have nothing to say to me that I find interesting in any way. Like Lies, I don't feel a need to have a religious affiliation, and I think sometimes for religious people it's very difficult to understand and accept that we're truly not lacking for anything in our lives or not missing anything either. As somebody who has done it both ways (religious and agnostic), I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is no desire in me to ever return to any kind of organized religion.
Of course. It's not the only reason I go to church, but it's a definite benefit. I have a sense of community with friends and even co-workers, but the community that comes from church obviously has a spiritual aspect to it, which is important to us, too. Not that we don't have friends who aren't spiritual, etc., it's just something that's important to us.

That's great to hear about how your parents are benefiting from that group. I think that's cool. I think staying connected to our ethnic groups is important, too. That's neat they have that.

That's fine if that's how you feel. We're all in different places spiritually. I just know community was important Biblically, so it has to have some value to it. That's what the original church was. Sadly, it's gotten away from a lot of that. It's turned from community to club. I honestly think it's getting back to the original model in a lot of ways, which is why I think we're not going to see a post-Christian West as this thread suggests. I think the Church is going through a pruning process and shedding a lot of the junk that's held it back for so long. It's OK to be a Democrat now! There's a growing focus on social justice, the Church is broadening its focus and putting issues like poverty at the forefront. There's a movement away from "religion" and more toward relationship. There's a lot to be excited about.
__________________
coemgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 11:19 AM   #37
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coemgen View Post
It's OK to be a Democrat now! There's a growing focus on social justice, the Church is broadening its focus and putting issues like poverty at the forefront. There's a movement away from "religion" and more toward relationship. There's a lot to be excited about.


it's refreshing to me to see that the biggest lesson we've learned from the surfacing of the "Moral Majority" in the early 1980s to the ascent of the Religious Right to political power in 1994 and their apex in 2000 with the election of GWB to their eventual defeat first in 2006 and then becoming a parody of itself with Palin in 2008, is that we all can see that politics and religion must be kept separate for the preservation of both. one corrupts the other without question. the Religious Right is all but dead, politically, having been relegated to certain outposts in the south and now being almost exclusively white.

and note that i'm saying Religious Right as opposed to people who are simply religious. blacks and hispanics certainly go to church in large numbers, but there is no comparable political apparatus within the black church or the catholic church to match the political influence once wielded by the Protestant Evangelicals (Robertson, Dobson, Falwell, etc.)
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 12:05 PM   #38
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Yes, it is on its deathbed. Finally.

I disagree though that faith and politics can't mix. I just think there are bad mixes and good mixes like anything else.
__________________
coemgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 01:22 PM   #39
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coemgen View Post
I just know community was important Biblically, so it has to have some value to it. That's what the original church was.
I am not implying that you meant this, but while I agree this is not in any way unique to Christianity, which I guess is what Martina is saying.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 01:26 PM   #40
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coemgen View Post
Yes, it is on its deathbed. Finally.

I disagree though that faith and politics can't mix. I just think there are bad mixes and good mixes like anything else.
My faith influences my political leanings, but where I believe it "can't mix" is when it extends beyond myself. There are a lot of things I don't do or haven't done personally that I am not willing to ban politically. I would rather make the choice not to do something than infringe on the rights and beliefs of others. I think the values that are demonstrated by the life and works of Christ are not things you can politically mandate anyway.
__________________
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 01:38 PM   #41
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
I am not implying that you meant this, but while I agree this is not in any way unique to Christianity, which I guess is what Martina is saying.
No, it's not unique to Christianity. Not at all. I was just saying that's an ancient value of the Church and it's an important part of who the Church is today.
__________________
coemgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 01:39 PM   #42
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
My faith influences my political leanings, but where I believe it "can't mix" is when it extends beyond myself. There are a lot of things I don't do or haven't done personally that I am not willing to ban politically. I would rather make the choice not to do something than infringe on the rights and beliefs of others. I think the values that are demonstrated by the life and works of Christ are not things you can politically mandate anyway.
There are many Christians who agree with you on this.
__________________
coemgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2009, 05:59 PM   #43
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coemgen View Post
Yes, it is on its deathbed. Finally.

I disagree though that faith and politics can't mix. I just think there are bad mixes and good mixes like anything else.
And this is exactly why I find your theological attitudes distasteful
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2009, 10:36 AM   #44
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
And this is exactly why I find your theological attitudes distasteful
__________________
coemgen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2009, 07:31 AM   #45
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 03:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
it's refreshing to me to see that the biggest lesson we've learned from the surfacing of the "Moral Majority" in the early 1980s to the ascent of the Religious Right to political power in 1994 and their apex in 2000 with the election of GWB to their eventual defeat first in 2006 and then becoming a parody of itself with Palin in 2008, is that we all can see that politics and religion must be kept separate for the preservation of both. one corrupts the other without question. the Religious Right is all but dead, politically, having been relegated to certain outposts in the south and now being almost exclusively white.
Amen.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com