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Old 07-09-2013, 03:08 AM   #211
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What supposed miracles did he perform?


not sure, but I heard it happened on 34th street.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:42 AM   #212
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What supposed miracles did he perform?
Healed people from beyond the grave because someone prayed to a shrine of the guy.

Catholics are weird.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:25 AM   #213
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Turned water into Jaegermeister
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:05 AM   #214
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For me, each day is a miracle. I don't think you need a massive supernatural thing to happen to believe in miracles. It's kind of like that Einstein quote: “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

In regards to Pope John Paul II, this is all political and PR for the Vatican. It usually takes many years for someone to become a saint, so the fact that they've sped up the process here screams agenda.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:26 AM   #215
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Einstein didn't believe in god
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:30 AM   #216
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Einstein didn't believe in god
I think he did believe in "god" - but in more of Deist sort of way. There are more than a few Einstein "God" quotes out there...
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:01 AM   #217
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Einstein didn't believe in god
So? Does that mean his quote has no value?

Or are you saying he never really said that and is falsely associated with that quote?
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:08 AM   #218
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OK, it looks like Einstein is being falsely associated with that quote. He may not have said that at all, or was misquoted.

But even so, you don't have to believe in any supreme being to be amazed by the world around you.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:15 AM   #219
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OK, it looks like Einstein is being falsely associated with that quote. He may not have said that at all, or was misquoted.

But even so, you don't have to believe in any supreme being to be amazed by the world around you.
For most people, when they say they don't believe in God - they are rejecting the Biblical view of God, but do seem to be open some sort of higher being/entity/energy...etc. Currently, there are many in the transhumanist camp that think humans, or perhaps a runaway AI, will become God through technology.

Additionally, quantum physics proves that our universe is far stranger than anyone can ever imagine - this alone leaves room for numerous possibilities, including God and miracles.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:29 AM   #220
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I guess my point is, if John Paul is on his way to sainthood - I think it's safe to say we can agree that he didn't perform miracles - does that not cheapen the idea of sainthood? Does it not, as a believer, lead you to question the miracles supposedly performed by other saints? Doesn't it call a great deal of the lore of Christianity into question?
Saints don't perform miracles. Nor do you pray to a Saint to perform a miracle. This is a big misconception among non-Catholics.

Saints intercede with God on your behalf. So it's kind of like, when you pray, you don't pray to a Saint, rather you ask them to intervene with God on your behalf due to their privileged position with God since they lived a saintly/blessed life, etc.

So there are no miracles that JPII performed himself - it would be miraculous events that are associated with people asking him for an intercession.

Does that make sense? (By which I mean my explanation, not the actual belief.)
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:32 AM   #221
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For most people, when they say they don't believe in God - they are rejecting the Biblical view of God, but do seem to be open some sort of higher being/entity/energy...etc. Currently, there are many in the transhumanist camp that think humans, or perhaps a runaway AI, will become God through technology.
While it is true that some atheists and agnostics are really rejecting the Abrahamic God, I wouldn't say most do believe in something. That sounds like a stretch, and some skeptics will tell you they think the idea of any sort of God is absurd.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:17 PM   #222
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I guess my point is, if John Paul is on his way to sainthood - I think it's safe to say we can agree that he didn't perform miracles - does that not cheapen the idea of sainthood? Does it not, as a believer, lead you to question the miracles supposedly performed by other saints? Doesn't it call a great deal of the lore of Christianity into question?

In Scripture, saints refer to all believers.

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The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10).
In the Catholic faith, the reference to Saints is more akin to “heroes of the Catholic faith”.

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Saints intercede with God on your behalf. So it's kind of like, when you pray, you don't pray to a Saint, rather you ask them to intervene with God on your behalf due to their privileged position with God since they lived a saintly/blessed life, etc.
Thank you for the very succinct explanation.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:46 PM   #223
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While it is true that some atheists and agnostics are really rejecting the Abrahamic God, I wouldn't say most do believe in something. That sounds like a stretch, and some skeptics will tell you they think the idea of any sort of God is absurd.
Perhaps I'm being too hopeful. I guess the few hardcore atheists that I've known always left open the door to "something" if not the Abrahamic God.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:25 PM   #224
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I think he did believe in "god" - but in more of Deist sort of way. There are more than a few Einstein "God" quotes out there...
Einstein used the word 'god' in a metaphorical sense. the same way Stephen Hawking uses it. Their 'god' is more an abstraction about the mathematical laws of the universe and nothing like the intervening god of religion. I think you'll find all the god quotes you find about Einstein are either false or taken completely out of context.

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So? Does that mean his quote has no value?

Or are you saying he never really said that and is falsely associated with that quote?
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OK, it looks like Einstein is being falsely associated with that quote. He may not have said that at all, or was misquoted.

But even so, you don't have to believe in any supreme being to be amazed by the world around you.
Einstein is routinely incorrectly cited by religious people (I don't mean you. I just see it all the time). It irks me. He has specifically gone out of his way to assert that he was in no way religious.

I couldn't agree more with your last comment though. I'm amazed every day. Sometimes I just sit and think about natural phenomena and it blows my mind that people aren't walking around wide eyed to each other all the time saying "THIS IS AMAZING!!!! AAAHHHHHH". But that has nothing to do with religion or miracles

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Saints don't perform miracles. Nor do you pray to a Saint to perform a miracle. This is a big misconception among non-Catholics.

Saints intercede with God on your behalf. So it's kind of like, when you pray, you don't pray to a Saint, rather you ask them to intervene with God on your behalf due to their privileged position with God since they lived a saintly/blessed life, etc.

So there are no miracles that JPII performed himself - it would be miraculous events that are associated with people asking him for an intercession.

Does that make sense? (By which I mean my explanation, not the actual belief.)
But I'm not wrong in saying that the beatification process requires the fulfillment of two miracles, correct? Whether they were through JP2's magic or through god's magic using JP2 as a conduit, from the perspective on Earth, the miracle came through him. Which is obviously a fraudulent claim. John Paul II was not involved in any miracles. Either was Mother Teresa (who was actually a wretched woman).
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:52 PM   #225
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Mother Teresa (who was actually a wretched woman).
But tell us how you really feel, JT.
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