"The poor need capitalism" - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-24-2010, 03:17 PM   #61
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
So you think the Haitians need a stable government more than capitalism?

Like Cuba.
I think it should go without saying that Haiti needs both a stable government and capitalism. Nonetheless, the ingredients necessary to achieve both are far more difficult than merely decreeing it.

"Nation building" is not exactly a subject I'm qualified to discuss at length (must add to my "to-read" list), but I'm not sure that much in Haiti can be achieved without political stability and without universal secular education necessary to sustain it.
__________________

__________________
melon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 04:39 PM   #62
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
I don't think it's by accident. The IMF can clearly see that their structural adjustment programmes have been hurting every one nation which they forced to implement it. Western states can clearly see how our MNCs are going into those countries to exploit the ressources and people. Then they argue the States should just negotiate good FDI terms when both actors are simply negotiating on totally different levels. But there is no motion to do anything about it, as it would hurt our economies.
The EU's subsidies for the farming sector and the exports to countries where local producers simply cannot compete these prices, are such a cynical and destructive policy.

Not even talking about futures and derivatives markets which are entirely disconnected from the goods they are trading.

Aid is fundamentally important, but the structures of trade are contradicting any efforts to help.
If you have the time you'll probably like the points that Hernando de Soto makes on property rights in regards to trade and aid in the video I posted. I do resent the barriers the west puts on poor countries. It will have to be a gradual weening off process as countries adapt to trade agreements. It was a difficult and imperfect process just to get NAFTA but all sides don't want to increase barriers because there would be net job losses. It's hilarious that in Canada we have better trade relations with the U.S. than we do with our provinces. As long as politicians can buy votes there will always be some groups that get a sweet deal by protectionism. Farmers don't want to change jobs but I'm glad I can buy South American produce during Canadian winters, so some agreements have been achieved.
__________________

__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 05:40 PM   #63
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:45 AM
I definitely need to get into de Soto's work more. He is not even an outsider when he stresses the importance of property rights, rather on the contrary.

We are promoting free trade when we are not willing to grant the same to other nations. We might drive down some tariffs and quotas, but then increase standards and such and just look for non-tariff barriers to trade. And we are quite creative with that one. It's not by accident that the EU's directive on the imports on fruits such as bananas fills books.
But even when we supposedly reduce evils such as quotas and thus promote free trade the effect may be grim on the producers. For classes I just had to prepare a presentation on fair trade and for that read Brewing Justice by Daniel Jaffee. It's quite exemplary how in the name of fair trade the quota system was sabotaged and a system that for decades guaranteed relatively good prices to both producers and consumers broke down overnight. Suddenly the trade was unregulated, quantities exceeded demand and the price depressed by 70% within a couple of months. To this day it hasn't gotten back to pre-1989 prices (even in nominal terms) and is even worse than 100 years ago.
Then the World Bank thought it a grand idea to apply the export-led growth theory to Vietnam and gave massive loans to boast their coffee production. Within ten years Vietnam moved from being the 10th largest coffee producer to becoming world's number two (behind Brazil). In a market that already suffered from oversupply.

And guess which only chance millions of Mexican and other Latin American coffee growers saw to survive? Well, it was two: A) Escaping to the US and B) growing drugs.
Same happened to pretty much any commodity except for oil.

I do agree that a farmer doesn't want to become change jobs, least become unemployed, but these policies kill. He would survive.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 07:54 PM   #64
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
I definitely need to get into de Soto's work more. He is not even an outsider when he stresses the importance of property rights, rather on the contrary.
Well it's bad when you buy a property but have no legal title to it and the person who sold it to you has lots of money then pays a high priced lawyer and treats you like a squater and ousts you from your property after you paid for it. That's the kind of scams that can occur without the property rights we have. To me in order of importance is politics, the rule of law, then economics. Without good transparent political systems and a decent justice system economic freedom and growth get hampered by the previous two factors.

The reality is that we have to increase trade in increments and excess farmers may have to find new jobs but quick changes to increase or decrease barriers both involve job changes. I'm glad during this recession the urge to increase trade barriers was resisted since countries have less internal buying and selling than in the 1930s so the unemployment rate on exporting countries would be frightful if we went in the direction we did during the Great Depression.

One benefit of lower prices is that consumers have excess money to buy other products and services which creates new jobs. The education system would have to adjust for those changes to help people to move from one industry to another. The average person I heard changes careers 6 times in their working career. For some people it may be higher. This is why employment insurance and individuals having a financial cushion to bridge those gaps are so important.
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 08:48 PM   #65
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,497
Local Time: 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by melon View Post
I think it should go without saying that Haiti needs both a stable government and capitalism. Nonetheless, the ingredients necessary to achieve both are far more difficult than merely decreeing it.


absolutely. however, what the Hatians would benefit most from is emigration, and that is something that could be achieved by decree.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 03:47 PM   #66
Refugee
 
Cactus Annie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Mighty Jagrafess of the Holy Hadrojassic Maxaroedenfoe
Posts: 2,146
Local Time: 05:45 AM
China is a strange place politically. They have proven that they are the best st making things, that is the Secondary economy.

The UK better at Finance (Tertinary economy). HSBC, sometimes mistaken for a British bank, is in fact Chinese. It's known as the HongKonk and Shanghai Banking Corporation. It is very succesful bank. Howver the Chinese, lack the prestigeous universities like America and Britain have. They've never had anyone who's won the Nobel Prize. The UK and US have.

But what we need to find is the primary level of the economy. Without the primary level of the economy we won't have the raw materials that support the other levels. Even in the Quadintery and service levels, we need raw matterials. The primary level of the economy is worth the least but is the foundation that supports everything else. The primary level of the economy is what comes from the ground
__________________
Cactus Annie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 05:34 PM   #67
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Well it's bad when you buy a property but have no legal title to it and the person who sold it to you has lots of money then pays a high priced lawyer and treats you like a squater and ousts you from your property after you paid for it. That's the kind of scams that can occur without the property rights we have. To me in order of importance is politics, the rule of law, then economics. Without good transparent political systems and a decent justice system economic freedom and growth get hampered by the previous two factors.

The reality is that we have to increase trade in increments and excess farmers may have to find new jobs but quick changes to increase or decrease barriers both involve job changes. I'm glad during this recession the urge to increase trade barriers was resisted since countries have less internal buying and selling than in the 1930s so the unemployment rate on exporting countries would be frightful if we went in the direction we did during the Great Depression.

One benefit of lower prices is that consumers have excess money to buy other products and services which creates new jobs. The education system would have to adjust for those changes to help people to move from one industry to another. The average person I heard changes careers 6 times in their working career. For some people it may be higher. This is why employment insurance and individuals having a financial cushion to bridge those gaps are so important.
We just need to make the set of rules such, that we don't grant some people property rights just to have some other loopholes which allow big corporations and such to buy these lands and do the same again.
Well government, laws and economy occur at the same time, pretty much. And in pretty much every country there is all of those present (exceptions prove the rule), so the question is what is going wrong in some countries, and how could we overcome these troubles. A lack of laws, well, that could be overcome. A corrupt or totalitarian government. That's a bit harder to get by. Both a corrupt government and a poor set of rules and it's even harder to stimulate any economic development. But if the institutions are in place and fair we have a good starting point. Yet, they will not be able to gain any if they are dependent on countries that are not genuinely interest in their improving.

We also shouldn't be surprised that nowadays in many parts the Chinese are seen as the better and more honest trading partners than firms from the West. After centuries after failed promises and repeated exploitation it's no surprise there is a certain mistrust in large parts of the world.

No one wants to face more structural unemployment, so subsidies and protections are being kept up. After all, how many farmers are educated in such a variety of professions that they could transition easily? Ok, at least European farmers could start as traders on the stock markets easily, and other Western farmers, too. But long-term, we won't get around rethinking our structures and to find ways to make trade more fair globally. Otherwise we will either be dealing with aid forever, or we are seeing those countries turn to China and the Near East.

If the benefit of saving on your daily expenses so you can buy your new flat screen more frequently goes at the cost of millions of other people, then I see these costs outweighing that benefit, but this is probably a question of philosophy. In Germany, we had a real wage deflation for the past 15 years. We also pay the lowest share of our income (4 person household) on food, 11%, worldwide. Yet, you will be hard-fetched to find people who say they have a greater disposable income for goods other than their needs for the reason of a scary wage development and the restructuring of employment, i.e. firing workers and re-hiring them on a low-wage basis. Unemployment officially went down, but we didn't have a real job growth. Most were just transferred into this kind of jobs, and to make a living they got some transfer benefits.
Only for a small number have the wages developed in a positive way. They are largely in the knowledge-based sectors.

Our politicians love to praise how knowledge, education and our innovativeness are our greates assets, and how we must invest in education. But it's more preaching than anything, as they are hardly increasing funding for education. They also expect you to be mobile and all, and flexible, but they don't really support you. Leaving aside that in Germany the mentality is totally different. Germans tend to stay in the area where they are born much more than people from other countries. And the politicians aren't even leading by example. Being civil servants (with life-time employment security, comfortable remuneration and very friendly pension schemes) they made a commitment to go where ever they are needed most. Yet, when it came to moving the government from Bonn to the new (yet old) capital of Berlin most of them refused it and complained how impossible it was for the state to ask of them to move 400km east. So now a number of ministries are still located in Bonn, the other half is in Berlin, and they, and their staff, commute. Idiots.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 08:42 PM   #68
ONE
love, blood, life
 
digitize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dallas and around the Texas Triangle
Posts: 13,962
Local Time: 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Annie View Post
China is a strange place politically. They have proven that they are the best st making things, that is the Secondary economy.

The UK better at Finance (Tertinary economy). HSBC, sometimes mistaken for a British bank, is in fact Chinese. It's known as the HongKonk and Shanghai Banking Corporation. It is very succesful bank. Howver the Chinese, lack the prestigeous universities like America and Britain have. They've never had anyone who's won the Nobel Prize. The UK and US have.

But what we need to find is the primary level of the economy. Without the primary level of the economy we won't have the raw materials that support the other levels. Even in the Quadintery and service levels, we need raw matterials. The primary level of the economy is worth the least but is the foundation that supports everything else. The primary level of the economy is what comes from the ground
China's not best at making anything; they just happen to be going through the same Industrial Revolution that Western Europe and America went through over a century ago right now, and, before workers get the rights and freedoms that inevitably come with more advanced Industrialization, the products they make will be cheap because of it.

That is, unless the Chinese Dynastic Cycle feels the need to interfere before that... China is interesting in how it developed, without the intervening geographic factors that Western Europe faced. Western Europe's fragmentation bred the nation states and lack of national unity faced by Europe today (though, as geographic factors lose importance, so has nationalism), whereas China has aimed for a more united Han Chinese society (I'm generalizing here). China and Western Europe faced very similar factors at the dawn of civilization, and their fragmentation or lack thereof has helped and hurt both... since the 1400s, Western Europe has been ahead, but China's development cycle is rather predictable, and it's not a stretch to say that they're nearing the top of another Dynastic Cycle right now.

And Japan is really the synthesis of Western Europe and China, having imported massive amount of Confucian/Han/Chinese culture but facing some geographic factors that make it rather European... and, if you look at history, it's acted very Western European in a lot of ways.

Regarding your statement about primary economics, who is/are "we"?
__________________
digitize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 08:55 PM   #69
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,886
Local Time: 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Annie View Post
A Janiter invented the hoover by using a sucker and a pillowcase. JK Rowling was a single mum on unemployment benefits. Capatalism is good. Alan Sugar and Richard Bransen came from working class backgrounds. It enables the working class to get there work out of poverty if they have an idea. Socialist Russia didn't, it just left millions in poverty.
This argument is so incredibly stupid. You do realize that for every JK Rowling, there are millions of people I can't even point to as an example because they worked hard their whole life and received little to nothing in return?
__________________
PhilsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 09:03 PM   #70
ONE
love, blood, life
 
digitize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dallas and around the Texas Triangle
Posts: 13,962
Local Time: 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
This argument is so incredibly stupid. You do realize that for every JK Rowling, there are millions of people I can't even point to as an example because they worked hard their whole life and received little to nothing in return?
There are also millions of people who would be exiled to extreme poverty and subsistence farming without the gears of capitalism.

Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is what should really be debated.
__________________
digitize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 09:05 PM   #71
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,886
Local Time: 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitize View Post
There are also millions of people who would be exiled to extreme poverty and subsistence farming without the gears of capitalism.

Now, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is what should really be debated.
There are goods and bads to every type of economy. I think to speak in absolutes about what's best is absurd.
__________________
PhilsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 09:06 PM   #72
ONE
love, blood, life
 
digitize's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dallas and around the Texas Triangle
Posts: 13,962
Local Time: 11:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
There are goods and bads to every type of economy. I think to speak in absolutes about what's best is absurd.
So one should absolutely not speak in absolutes?
__________________
digitize is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 09:21 PM   #73
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 03:45 PM
Capitalism is just a word. Capital is accrued value. Who owns or controls it an entirely separate question. The way it's being used in this thread, basically yer trickle-down version, well, it's a pretty inefficient way of helping the poor.

And, let it be said, capitalism is not a synonym for democracy. It is just a description of a phenomenon really. To be anti capitalist would be like being anti-purple. The question is how a political economy manages it.
__________________
Kieran McConville is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2010, 11:32 PM   #74
Blue Crack Addict
 
PhilsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Standing on the shore, facing east.
Posts: 18,886
Local Time: 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitize View Post
So one should absolutely not speak in absolutes?
I get it. Sort of like how I think generalities need to be avoided. But if you quit playing semantics with my words, the point stands.
__________________
PhilsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2010, 10:51 AM   #75
Refugee
 
Cactus Annie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Mighty Jagrafess of the Holy Hadrojassic Maxaroedenfoe
Posts: 2,146
Local Time: 05:45 AM
I am talking about having an idea. JK Rowling had an idea. Most successful people start off with an idea. She's not really a great writer, but she had an idea.
__________________

__________________
Cactus Annie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
is "the golden rule" genetic? Irvine511 Free Your Mind Archive 8 09-19-2007 07:52 PM
"The Web's Number 1 Christian Porn Site"?! sallycinnamon78 Free Your Mind Archive 90 06-18-2005 06:35 AM
Bono joke in this week's "The Onion" LyricalDrug Everything You Know Is Wrong Archive 4 05-18-2005 06:40 PM
Fusion: "the batman" theme and hmtmkmkm davidtpark Music on the Internet 17 05-01-2005 08:23 PM
Request: Nice mp3, wav, or m4a file of "The Fly" as performed on Elevation tour PaleBlueDot Music on the Internet 0 05-01-2005 12:57 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com