"The poor need capitalism" - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-23-2010, 10:08 AM   #46
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
The success most Haitian-Americans find here in America after coming to our country speaks to their talents and work ethic. Too bad they have to leave their home to realize their aspirations to succeed.

because it's entirely accurate to compare Haiti with the United States.

Haiti's problems run far, far, far deeper than mindless "socialist" labels.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 10:23 AM   #47
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 04:05 AM
I agree in that I favor Capitalism over Socialism, but that is a very strong oversimplification in my view. Especially concerning the issue of economic equality, the neoliberal philosophy of trade and its effects on poor countries (free trade, nothing else), driving costs of production to an awful minimum, mainly by seeing manual labour in developing countries as a commodity that is to be exploited (their comparative advantage) etc.

Capitalism is very good when you live on the right side. But capitalism as is is hell, just as is socialism, for those who didn't have that luck in the life lottery.
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 02:18 PM   #48
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
because it's entirely accurate to compare Haiti with the United States.
Compare them to the Dominican Republic than. Their island neighbor.

Quote:
Haiti's problems run far, far, far deeper than mindless "socialist" labels.
But the thread is The Poor Need Capitalism. How anyone can argue the point is beyond me.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 02:27 PM   #49
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Compare them to the Dominican Republic than. Their island neighbor.

do you know anything about the history of Haiti? i mean right now, before you go google it.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 02:29 PM   #50
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
do you know anything about the history of Haiti? i mean right now, before you go google it.
I've learned more in the past 10 days then I ever knew. What specifically?
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 03:01 PM   #51
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
I've learned more in the past 10 days then I ever knew. What specifically?


then you should know that the issue is neither the presence or absence of capitalism, but the historical legacy of colonialism that's still working itself out today.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 03:03 PM   #52
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 04:05 AM
middle class needs capitalism
the poor need a break
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 04:21 PM   #53
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
then you should know that the issue is neither the presence or absence of capitalism, but the historical legacy of colonialism that's still working itself out today.
Then Irvine let's compare Haiti to post colonial Singapore. Or on a much larger scale India the past generation.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 04:59 PM   #54
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,885
Local Time: 10:05 PM
"Hello, I'm from the Haitian government. I'm here to help."
__________________
Bluer White is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 06:47 PM   #55
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Then Irvine let's compare Haiti to post colonial Singapore. Or on a much larger scale India the past generation.


i think you need to do more reading.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 07:47 PM   #56
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i think you need to do more reading.
So you think the Haitians need a stable government more than capitalism?

Like Cuba.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2010, 10:56 PM   #57
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
I agree in that I favor Capitalism over Socialism, but that is a very strong oversimplification in my view. Especially concerning the issue of economic equality, the neoliberal philosophy of trade and its effects on poor countries (free trade, nothing else), driving costs of production to an awful minimum, mainly by seeing manual labour in developing countries as a commodity that is to be exploited (their comparative advantage) etc.

Capitalism is very good when you live on the right side. But capitalism as is is hell, just as is socialism, for those who didn't have that luck in the life lottery.
The most important thing for socialists to understand is that without capitalism there is nothing to distribute to the poor. Despite Sweden having high personal taxes they left corporate taxes lower than the U.S. so jobs wouldn't disappear so easy. It's a symbiotic relationship when the taxes don't kill growth. When there's economic growth the government automatically collects more tax revenue so not "killing the goose that lays the golden egg" with high taxes on business is the road to success for any social reformers.

This is why socialist poor countries that didn't have a chance to develop can't distribute much because there isn't much of a tax base to provide European level social programs. Most economists look at 30-40% of GDP being in the hands of government as a maximum. If it gets too much higher than that for businesses then they have less profits to reinvest and grow. This makes young people and the chronic under-employed wait longer before opportunities arrive.

If we take the same logic for businesses we can also add this to individuals. Those who are working should save emergency funds, pay off their houses ASAP, and save for retirement. The more pool of funds is available the larger the cushion there is to deal with unemployment and eventually retirement. The Bible story of fat years and lean years still applies. This reduces the tendency to water down social programs when more applicants appear than the government expected.
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 07:48 AM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 04:05 AM
I forgot, Sweden was a Socialist country.

There is a number of reasons why socialism isn't going to work, such as the elimination of property, taking away incentives to be productive, efficient and innovative and the impossibility of planning an economy. The problem isn't necessarily that people don't want to be productive or innovative, but that often enough they are not even allowed to. Engineers with the Trabant Werke, e.g., developed things similar to ABS and ESC back in the 1960s, but the government said "No, the car is fine as it is."
Well, anyway, socialism is a dream of a better world leading towards misery when applied.

You are referring to the neoclassical savings gap model, which is also championed by Jeffrey Sachs and institutions such as the World Bank and the IMF. It's a very logical and nice theory, but so far when applied to economically underdeveloped nations it had usually failed for a number of reasons. One certainly being that it has been adopted as a one size fits all model, and another important factor that it's going alongside the free trade paradigm, with the IMF's structural adjustment programmes which are not only liberalising their trade in goods, but even liberalising their financial markets.

Free trade has depressed commodity prices for pretty much all raw materials, and countries with valuable metals in their grounds repeatedly suffer from 'Dutch disease' as the international trade agreements and contracts with the Western extraction companies totally screw over both the states and the citizens of those countries. Almost no money is left in their economies, so their chances of overcoming the savings gap is zero.

Social welfare programmes are so far out of reach for them it's pretty much an exercise in futility discussing it at this moment. They've hardly had any fat years in the past two to three decades, and those that could be considered fat didn't even pay off what was lost in the lean years.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 01:47 PM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
purpleoscar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: In right wing paranoia
Posts: 7,597
Local Time: 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
You are referring to the neoclassical savings gap model, which is also championed by Jeffrey Sachs and institutions such as the World Bank and the IMF. It's a very logical and nice theory, but so far when applied to economically underdeveloped nations it had usually failed for a number of reasons. One certainly being that it has been adopted as a one size fits all model, and another important factor that it's going alongside the free trade paradigm, with the IMF's structural adjustment programmes which are not only liberalising their trade in goods, but even liberalising their financial markets.

Free trade has depressed commodity prices for pretty much all raw materials, and countries with valuable metals in their grounds repeatedly suffer from 'Dutch disease' as the international trade agreements and contracts with the Western extraction companies totally screw over both the states and the citizens of those countries. Almost no money is left in their economies, so their chances of overcoming the savings gap is zero.

Social welfare programmes are so far out of reach for them it's pretty much an exercise in futility discussing it at this moment. They've hardly had any fat years in the past two to three decades, and those that could be considered fat didn't even pay off what was lost in the lean years.
What Jeffrey Sachs and the IMF need to understand is that the west got rich not just from trade (though that is VERY important) but because of proper private property rights, justice system to punish robbery and bribery, and cultural attitudes towards limiting the number of children (having 3 children instead of 7) and controlling spending so there is a surplus of wealth to invest. Many of these countries don't have one of these institutions let alone all. Letting countries develop their own resources is important so that they have something to trade. I also want to see Africa being allowed to use fossil fuels to get cheap energy.

China is an interesting example. Despite having a dictatorship the communist party allowed markets in certain zones and they have flourished without tons of aid. I think they didn't want to head for the real socialist dictatorship of N. Korea with it's horrible economic consequences. There is a role for government in terms of education, roads and some healthcare to facilitate growth and to fill in the gaps where markets can't deliver. If the government allowed this freedom throughout China many poor in collective farms could improve their choices. The Chinese have an attitude of "the dynasty" so saving money is for future generations. With this attitude inheritance can build a middle class which would be useful in a democracy. When people have a stake in society they want a say. Of course I can't ignore cultural factors so I only have a hope that China (which has never had a democracy) will take the plunge sometime in my lifetime.

The cultural attitudes towards markets are the least understood elements with Western economists and despite the hurling of slurs like "colonialism" and "racism" we have to study what cultural norms exist that impede development. In the west, trade and usury was considered evil during the middle ages and philosophers like Aquinas believed in "just prices". We also have to hear controversial economists who point out the negatives of aid and dependency that no one will talk about. Here's a good debate:

The Debates | Munk Debates

We can't forget that a farmer trying to compete against free food aid will have to find another job and third party to third party transfers of funds from rich to poor countries often don't get spent properly and end up in a Swiss bank accounts. We also have to realise that free trade doesn't really exist and there are plenty of barriers throughout the world (even the west) that are still there. Economics is still a nacent science and we have a LONG way to go to master it. Aid is a good short-term solution but a long-term solution hasn't been found for all cultures.
__________________
purpleoscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 02:54 PM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 04:05 AM
China resembles many of the features of Asian economy. It's more of a special case than a prime example, as it is a divided country. There is Economic China which since 1978 has become gradually more capitalistic, and there is Political China which is still clinging to socialism. I hope they will leave that path sometime, too.

Better examples of those economies would be countries such as Japan, South Korea or Taiwan. They closed their economies to grow their industries, and in that respect had a very socialist attitude where the government played a very active role in allocating resources such as import goods and bank credits, decided which industries it would promote and acted as an intermediary between the banking system and the industries. Saving rates throughout Asia are very high. It's the total opposite of especially the US. Their problems, ie. the Asian crisis, started when they began to open their financial markets.

On the contrary you have South and Latin America and many African nations who adopted the policies eventually formulated in the Washington Consensus of 1990.

I don't think it's by accident. The IMF can clearly see that their structural adjustment programmes have been hurting every one nation which they forced to implement it. Western states can clearly see how our MNCs are going into those countries to exploit the ressources and people. Then they argue the States should just negotiate good FDI terms when both actors are simply negotiating on totally different levels. But there is no motion to do anything about it, as it would hurt our economies.
The EU's subsidies for the farming sector and the exports to countries where local producers simply cannot compete these prices, are such a cynical and destructive policy.

Not even talking about futures and derivatives markets which are entirely disconnected from the goods they are trading.

Aid is fundamentally important, but the structures of trade are contradicting any efforts to help.
__________________

__________________
Vincent Vega is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
is "the golden rule" genetic? Irvine511 Free Your Mind Archive 8 09-19-2007 07:52 PM
"The Web's Number 1 Christian Porn Site"?! sallycinnamon78 Free Your Mind Archive 90 06-18-2005 06:35 AM
Bono joke in this week's "The Onion" LyricalDrug Everything You Know Is Wrong Archive 4 05-18-2005 06:40 PM
Fusion: "the batman" theme and hmtmkmkm davidtpark Music on the Internet 17 05-01-2005 08:23 PM
Request: Nice mp3, wav, or m4a file of "The Fly" as performed on Elevation tour PaleBlueDot Music on the Internet 0 05-01-2005 12:57 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com