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Old 11-24-2009, 08:01 AM   #16
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You don't necessarily need a large "farm" to grow produce. An acre or two of land, may be all that you have to do this.
My point is, let's get some global perspective.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:10 AM   #17
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Out of curiosity, what do you think of "ordoliberalism"?

Ordoliberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I would say that is what we are attempting this in the present era. I would also add that we are failing at it - the waves regulation and de-regulations often benefits a few, well funded companies that in turn can continue to buy the politicians to keep the regulations/de-regulation cycle working to their own benefit.

That being said, I do think the role of the state should be to encourage and protect the free market. Remove the ability of companies to buy politicians through campaign contributions - and we may have a shot at it. As it stands now, they are all on the same team.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:17 AM   #18
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My point is, let's get some global perspective.
enlighten us as to your poverty requirements.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:58 AM   #19
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My point is, let's get some global perspective.
I agree.....though, there is poverty in the first world nations. It is nothing compared to that of underdeveloped countries. None of us here are living on less than one dollar/euro per day.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:12 PM   #20
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How to Conquer Poverty - John Chamberlain - Mises Institute

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Combing through the records of antiquity, Mr. Hazlitt notes what "the New Deal in Old Rome" did to enervate our first great universal empire. Between state supported slavery, high taxes, the multiplying relief of "bread and circuses," and the final imposition of price controls, Roman productive efficiency simply vanished.
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Mr. Hazlitt rather doubts that the problem can ever be resolved to everybody's satisfaction. He recognizes that it would be politically impossible to get the state totally out of the welfare business. But he sees some hope in the educative value of events.
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The real solution to the problem of poverty does not lie in any government relief system, or in any endeavor to redistribute wealth or income. It lies, says Mr. Hazlitt, in increased production. One increases production by making investments in more efficient tools. The free-swinging enterpriser, using capitalist savings, is the true hero of the war on poverty.
The reality is probably somewhere inbetween.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:30 PM   #21
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We also need to avoid this:



At least with competing currencies we can avoid what happened to the Roman Empire but with a world currency there is nowhere to run to, except maybe gold, which can still be inflated if gold reserves are released to the market.
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Old 11-25-2009, 01:51 PM   #22
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How many lap dances at the Tatoonie Cantina will one of those get?
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:31 PM   #23
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How many lap dances at the Tatoonie Cantina will one of those get?
That's no moon...
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:45 PM   #24
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I would say that is what we are attempting this in the present era. I would also add that we are failing at it - the waves regulation and de-regulations often benefits a few, well funded companies that in turn can continue to buy the politicians to keep the regulations/de-regulation cycle working to their own benefit.

That being said, I do think the role of the state should be to encourage and protect the free market. Remove the ability of companies to buy politicians through campaign contributions - and we may have a shot at it. As it stands now, they are all on the same team.
Well, when I see very large corporations get even larger, with their merger proposals getting approved with little to no scrutiny, I certainly have my doubts as to whether government at all cares about competition. I'd say that all is not lost in the U.S. on this front. Canada, on the other hand? I really get the sense that, as long as you are a corporate oligarch, you can really do whatever you want, and that preserving competition is not even a consideration.

As for point #2 regarding regulating campaign contributions, I certainly do agree with this point, but the obstacles are fairly insurmountable. Supreme Court precedent has basically put campaign contributions on the same level as "free speech," and any real attempts to reign in campaign contributions generally get thwarted by the court system. I do understand where they are coming from, with access to the political system as a form of expression, but it is hard to see how it benefits society-at-large.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:36 PM   #25
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Well, when I see very large corporations get even larger, with their merger proposals getting approved with little to no scrutiny, I certainly have my doubts as to whether government at all cares about competition. I'd say that all is not lost in the U.S. on this front. Canada, on the other hand? I really get the sense that, as long as you are a corporate oligarch, you can really do whatever you want, and that preserving competition is not even a consideration.

As for point #2 regarding regulating campaign contributions, I certainly do agree with this point, but the obstacles are fairly insurmountable. Supreme Court precedent has basically put campaign contributions on the same level as "free speech," and any real attempts to reign in campaign contributions generally get thwarted by the court system. I do understand where they are coming from, with access to the political system as a form of expression, but it is hard to see how it benefits society-at-large.
Since we were discussing Plato in the other thread - I thought bring his wisdom here. I have always thought this was a fantastic idea:

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Plato held that guardians should own no private property, should live and eat together at government expense, and should earn no salary greater than necessary to supply their most basic needs. Under this regime, no one will have any venal motive for seeking a position of leadership, and those who are chosen to be guardians will govern solely from a concern to seek the welfare of the state in what is best for all of its citizens.
Plato: The Republic 1-4
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:58 PM   #26
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Well, when I see very large corporations get even larger, with their merger proposals getting approved with little to no scrutiny, I certainly have my doubts as to whether government at all cares about competition. I'd say that all is not lost in the U.S. on this front. Canada, on the other hand? I really get the sense that, as long as you are a corporate oligarch, you can really do whatever you want, and that preserving competition is not even a consideration.
Not really; the legislation was amended as of March of this year, and the merger approval process in place now is modelled on the US system (and is very similar, though in some ways actually more efficient).

(Must scurry back to work now, but damn I needed a 5 min break)
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Old 11-26-2009, 12:14 AM   #27
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Since we were discussing Plato in the other thread - I thought bring his wisdom here. I have always thought this was a fantastic idea:
Plato: The Republic 1-4
I don't know if that would really work:

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Around 388 a Greek visitor arrived at the court of Dionysius, the philosopher Plato (c.429-347). Plato got involved in trying to educate the son of the tyrant, who would shortly become Dionysius II, in philosophy and responsible statesmanship. Plato returned a couple of times as part of the effort, but it didn't turn out very well. Plato's friend Dion, who launched a coup against the tyrant, was killed and Plato was left with a very bad impression of the whole business -- "But the requests of tyrants are coupled, as we know, with compulsory powers," as Plato says in Epistle VII, written to Dion's friends. This helped confirm Plato in his determination to stay out of Athenian politics.
Democracy is still much better than Plato's republic IMHO.
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:42 AM   #28
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I don't know if that would really work:



Democracy is still much better than Plato's republic IMHO.

I don't think I would want the entire system of Plato's Republic, but I certainly like the idea of the Guardians and their inability to have wealth or property.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:00 AM   #29
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I don't think I would want the entire system of Plato's Republic, but I certainly like the idea of the Guardians and their inability to have wealth or property.
Oh I know it's a dream I wish came true but their self-interest would have to be labotomized from their brains before they would agree to it. I could see most husbands or wives from politicians trying to find ways to get the taxpayer to fund home renovations like in the U.K. Even getting priests to remain unmarried was to help with commitment to the church and reduce costs on the church and it is still filled with financial corruption and abuse. The best way for the politicians to act in benefit of the people that I know of is to have the voting public be less complacent and actually punish malfeasance and get motivated to push those guys out.

For your idea to work you would have to find a way to get the public to change the constitution in such a way that politicians will vote for that change to be under law that requires them to be paupers. That's a tough one.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:46 AM   #30
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For your idea to work you would have to find a way to get the public to change the constitution in such a way that politicians will vote for that change to be under law that requires them to be paupers. That's a tough one.
Yes, I certainly doubt it could happen in any time soon. And it could happen with a Republic type education system (where the future Guardians are selected young and trained for the role).

Remember, they wouldn't necessarily become "paupers" - just housed and fed by the government they serve.
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