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Old 08-27-2010, 12:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
that the Right have coopted phrases such as 'Liberty' to a sufficient extent that any website I come across related to keywords such as 'Liberty' is almost guaranteed to be of the political Right, indeed probably the far Right. It's kind of sad, really.
In North America Conservatives don't like that Liberal was coopted by the left. It's typical of political labels to change as parties shift priorities over the decades and centuries. The political science labels are rarely used in politics.
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:54 PM   #17
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Yes, mate, but Liberty is one of those words that is absolutely key to the United States' founding principles. Liberalism (while not unrelated, historically) is something different.
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Old 08-27-2010, 07:02 PM   #18
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In North America Conservatives don't like that Liberal was coopted by the left. It's typical of political labels to change as parties shift priorities over the decades and centuries. The political science labels are rarely used in politics.
Care to explain?
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Old 08-27-2010, 07:52 PM   #19
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Refresh my memory, Nate. Which major "grassroots" organization did Soros fund that had a major impact on the political and cultural landscape?
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Old 08-27-2010, 07:52 PM   #20
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Care to explain?
Classical Liberals are different than reform liberals. Conservatives in the past were for mercantilism and Liberals for free trade. As liberal parties changed to reform liberalism the classical liberals moved into conservative parties. Of course this is more for my country but it's similar in most of the English speaking world. In Europe some conservatives are called Neo-Liberal so the term can still be applied to the right politically.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:01 PM   #21
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Classical Liberals are different than reform liberals. Conservatives in the past were for mercantilism and Liberals for free trade. As liberal parties changed to reform liberalism the classical liberals moved into conservative parties. Of course this is more for my country but it's similar in most of the English speaking world. In Europe some conservatives are called Neo-Liberal so the term can still be applied to the right politically.
In case you hadn't noticed this kind of cerebral discussion isn't exactly common in popular politics in the United States.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:15 PM   #22
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In case you hadn't noticed this kind of cerebral discussion isn't exactly common in popular politics in the United States.
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The political science labels are rarely used in politics.
You were saying.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:30 PM   #23
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I read the article.

"And in the past 30 years, they've funneled more than $100 million into dozens of political organizations, many of which are trying to steer the country in a more libertarian direction."

Are you saying that is wrong?

God bless anyone promoting less goverment control and more personal freedom.

Liberty is worth more than 100 million.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:48 PM   #24
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I read the article.

"And in the past 30 years, they've funneled more than $100 million into dozens of political organizations, many of which are trying to steer the country in a more libertarian direction."

Are you saying that is wrong?

God bless anyone promoting less goverment control and more personal freedom.

Liberty is worth more than 100 million.
Remember the left manufactures opinion so when the right does the same they get pissed off. Whether less or more government is good or bad isn't the topic of this thread. I still feel though that there are more "grassroots" with the right precisely because the general public doesn't have to know rocket science to understand that large debt = future taxes.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:05 PM   #25
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It's the lack of transparency that's the story here. They sold the Tea Party as grassroots. I've seen that word thrown around all the time in association with it, as a positive.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:47 PM   #26
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Remember the left manufactures opinion so when the right does the same they get pissed off. Whether less or more government is good or bad isn't the topic of this thread. I still feel though that there are more "grassroots" with the right precisely because the general public doesn't have to know rocket science to understand that large debt = future taxes.
I'm sure the left would LIKE to manufacture opinion. . .they simply have not been as successful at doing so.

The United States generally leans conservative IMO, so right-wing opinion manufacturing generally resonates more.

I'm not convinced that most people are as concerned about the debt as they claim to be. I'm just not convinced that most of the people all riled up about the debt and government spending and Obama and etc, etc are really that deeply informed about the issues. I feel that most are being led around by the nose by unscrupulous entertainers that are making big money off their audience and by corporate interests who have their own agenda.

I know it's terribly snooty of me to say so, but I'm sorry the popular debate on the right has led with emotion demogaugery and sensationlism, not intellectual rigor. So what other conclusions am I to draw?

The irony is I am personally very skeptical of the effectiveness of large-scale government programs, but I find little on the conservative side of things to attach myself to in this country. The conservative point of view as poplularly expressed in the U.S. comes across as selfish, cynical, and intellectually bankrupt.
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Old 08-27-2010, 09:57 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
The United States generally leans conservative IMO, so right-wing opinion manufacturing generally resonates more.

Yep. The US is, at least arguably, a hyper-capitalist society. The ingrown terrorism threat in the US is mainly from the right rather than the left - Tim McVeigh, the people that talk casually of shooting President Obama, the gun nuts - all that crew. It doesn't matter how right wing you are in America, they're always be a talking head on Fox that will give you affirmation.

In Europe, it's different. If there is a threat to civic order, it usually comes from the far left. Virtually all terrorist offences on European soil in the last forty years have been committed by left wing terrorists.

I offer no value judgement on which is a better model.
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Old 08-27-2010, 10:26 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
I'm sure the left would LIKE to manufacture opinion. . .they simply have not been as successful at doing so.

The United States generally leans conservative IMO, so right-wing opinion manufacturing generally resonates more.

I'm not convinced that most people are as concerned about the debt as they claim to be. I'm just not convinced that most of the people all riled up about the debt and government spending and Obama and etc, etc are really that deeply informed about the issues. I feel that most are being led around by the nose by unscrupulous entertainers that are making big money off their audience and by corporate interests who have their own agenda.

I know it's terribly snooty of me to say so, but I'm sorry the popular debate on the right has led with emotion demogaugery and sensationlism, not intellectual rigor. So what other conclusions am I to draw?

The irony is I am personally very skeptical of the effectiveness of large-scale government programs, but I find little on the conservative side of things to attach myself to in this country. The conservative point of view as poplularly expressed in the U.S. comes across as selfish, cynical, and intellectually bankrupt.
It depends on who you read but the conservatives have the benefit of history and the lessons of history, but they have a perceived weakness in that they want the public to be responsible for their own finances and lives and the public isn't that concerned, (until now). Usually a financial crisis or debt crisis spur change amongst the public and politicians know this from the left and the right. The public wants high government spending and low taxes which is unsustainable (see Greece). In that documentary I.O.U.S.A. politicians openly said that there would probably have to be a debt crisis before there is a groundswell of public support for curtailing government spending. In the end the public gets the government that they deserve. I certainly can see an entitlement behaviour in the West that started in the 1800s and keeps increasing with each new generation. So far there has never been a society that has achieved great wealth and power without becoming so complacent and lazy and selfish to not avoid decadence. There are usually periods of renewal but it's hard to guess the future. Whatever philosopher or sociologist that can find a way to keep a free society disciplined during periods of indefinite wealth indefinitely will be the philosopher to revere and learn from.

Unfortunately all I hear is crickets. Until then humans have to learn the hard way and feel a sense of loss before they value something and by then it may be too late. In history societies with overtaxation and large bureaucracies with large benefits and few people described as middle class with the rest considered poor is often the norm. To have a large middle class and generally more equality would require the public to be inspired to achieve and produce more or equal to consumption and so far only modestly taxed societies have achieved this.

and "Ahnuld" is sounding the debt alarm:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Classical Liberals are different than reform liberals. Conservatives in the past were for mercantilism and Liberals for free trade. As liberal parties changed to reform liberalism the classical liberals moved into conservative parties. Of course this is more for my country but it's similar in most of the English speaking world. In Europe some conservatives are called Neo-Liberal so the term can still be applied to the right politically.
Well this is the wikipedia dumbed down version, but anyways...

Quote:
In North America Conservatives don't like that Liberal was coopted by the left.
This isn't exactly true.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:07 AM   #30
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I read the article.

"And in the past 30 years, they've funneled more than $100 million into dozens of political organizations, many of which are trying to steer the country in a more libertarian direction."

Are you saying that is wrong?

God bless anyone promoting less goverment control and more personal freedom.

Liberty is worth more than 100 million.
Koch tried running several times and failed, he discovered that manufacturing opinion works better for his cause. Do I think that's wrong? I think it's disingenuous at the very least.

They are not exactly looking for more personal freedom, they just want their industry to regulated less so that they can cut more corners and make more money.

This is ONLY about $$$
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