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Old 01-12-2009, 08:10 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
I don't need to sort through 8 years of data to tell me what I already know.
Looking at such data helps prevent one from making incorrect statements on the issues.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:28 PM   #227
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Put aside what abstract merit of toppling Saddam:
The benefit to the United States, the region and the world is enormous, but only those who actually know and understand the history of what Saddam did prior to 2003 are going to appreciate that.


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Bush's legacy won't survive the reality of toppling Saddam: the trillion dollar cluster-fuck reconstruction full of cronyism, lies, corruption, and American/Iraqi civilian deaths in exchange for establishing Iran's new BFF in the Middle East.
Its been a war that has had several mistakes and large costs. Its also a nation building exercise. How are such mistakes, and costs, inconsistent with the history of war and nation building?

Iran has never posed the same threat that Saddam's Iraq did to the region and the world. Unlike Saddam's Iraq, Iran has not invaded an annexed any of its neighbors, attempted to sieze or sabotage much of the worlds oil supply, and use WMD on a mass scale against its neighbors. They have not launched ballistic missiles, unprovoked, at any of their neighbors.

Even if Iraq were Iran's new puppet state, as you incorrectly claim, it would not change the necessity of removing Saddam.

Today it is not Iran that has 150,000 troops in Iraq, its the United States, it is not Iran that has worked extensively with Iraq's military, it is the United States, it is not Iran that has essentially built the new Iraqi military that we see today, it is the United States, it is not Iran from whom the new Iraqi government plans to begin purchasing large numbers of weapon systems, it is the United States.

Iran will never be able to offer Iraq what the United States, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, and Egypt can offer it. That is why even the Shia Arabs with friendly ties to Iran are not going to become its puppet. Lets not forget that 40% of Iraq is not Shia Arab and has no desire to be a puppet state of Iran let alone have better ties with Iran than they would with the Sunni Arab countries, the United States and Europe.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:34 PM   #228
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considering that 69% of the American public strongly disapproves of Bush, it's clear that only the fringe believe he's done a good job -- it's the highest disapproval rate in history.

there's really no question here. only the self-deluded fringe approve of Bush's job.

the viewpoints expressed in FYM are quite representative not only of the US at large, but the world at large as well.
But as GALLUP recently said about that disapproval rating, it is not as accurate a measure as the approval rating numbers since several decades ago people were less likely to register their disapproval of a sitting President.

If FYM were representative of the USA at large, not only would Bush never have been President, but the Republican party would be smaller than the Green party is in reality today.
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:47 PM   #229
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still, who needs poll numbers when you have evidence?
Not much evidence in the article which claims 8 year period is the weakest economically in decades!?!?!

Well, lets look at the raw averages of some economic numbers for Clintons 8 years VS. Bush's 8 years:


The Average National Federal Debt as a percentage of GDP:

Clinton Years 64.5%

Bush Years 61.9%





Average GDP growth rate:

Clinton Years 5.4%

Bush Years 4.8%





Average Annual Poverty Rate:

Clinton Years 13.3%

Bush Years 12.3%








Average Annual Inflation Rate:

Clinton Years 2.60%

Bush Years 2.69%






Average Annual Unemployment Rate:

Clinton Years 5.21%

Bush Years 5.20%






It should be noted that the average poverty rate under President Bush is the 3rd lowest in US history!
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Old 01-12-2009, 08:54 PM   #230
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Its been a war that has had several mistakes and large costs. Its also a nation building exercise. How are such mistakes, and costs, inconsistent with the history of war and nation building?
No One Could Have Possibly Foreseen This!

When the biography of the Bush Administration is written, I wonder what the over/under will be on administration officials using some variation on that trying to defend themselves against the painfully obvious, recorded, analyzed, and predicted events that actual experts discussed, from 9/11 to Iraq to Katrina to the recent financial meltdown. That will be another part of Bush's legacy. Anti-intellectualism until things go wrong, then it's the experts fault for never seeing it coming.

I did not mean to suggest a strong puppet state relationship, but Saddam's Iraq was a major regional counterpoint to Iran. Now they have a more friendly government, and certainly not the western-liberal ready ally to Israel that a few were bold enough to envision.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:01 PM   #231
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The poverty rate and unemployment rate are not very useful anymore. Every government in power has found it to their advantage to twist and redefine it to make the numbers look better for them. This predates both Clinton and Bush. Good for a very broad picture but I wouldn't be counting decimal places as a comparison.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:59 PM   #232
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But he also said he disagrees with those who say the federal response to the storm was slow.

"Don't tell me the federal response was slow when there were 30,000 people pulled off roofs right after the storm passed. ... Could things been done better? Absolutely. But when I hear people say the federal response was slow, what are they going to say to those chopper drivers or the 30,000 who got pulled off the roof?" he said.
Just guessing, but I guess those 30,000 people would also be wondering why it took 2 days for those helicopters to start to arrive. Or why ice trucks were rerouted to Maine. Or why it took days for the FEMA director to even know about how bad the situation was. Or that there are people still living in FEMA trailers to this day. Or what happened at the convention center

They came seeking refuge, then suffered days in anguish

But hey, don't tell him the response was slow!
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:16 PM   #233
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STING, you act like anyone who disagrees with Bush must be unaware. We know exactly what the state of Iraq was before 2003.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:15 AM   #234
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Last of the Rock Stars,
when Hip Hop drove the big cars,
when the New Media was the Big Idea..
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:15 AM   #235
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No you don't, for that matter I don't, but I would accept it being a choice between bad and worse; and unlike people with convictions (such as financeguy) I expect you to be mute when it comes to a humanitarian intervention by the Obama administration.
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:55 AM   #236
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I just can't believe what he said about Katrina

Revisionist history is a bitch
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:42 AM   #237
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Almost entirely disconnected?


Campbell Brown Rips Bush For Katrina Remarks (VIDEO)

Campbell Brown cut through George Bush's bull Monday night, taking the President to task for his remarks about Hurricane Katrina during his farewell press conference.

Brown "was taken aback" with Bush's statements defending his administration's Katrina response, statements she described as "almost entirely disconnected still from what really happened."

"Don't tell me the federal response was slow," Bush said, "when there was 30,000 people pulled off roods right after the storm passed."

"Many people will disagree over many aspects of the Bush legacy," Brown said. "But on the government's handling of Katrina? It is impossible to challenge what so many of us witnessed firsthand, what the entire country witnessed through the images on our television screens day and night.

"Mr. President, you cannot pat yourself on the back for that one," she then said. "We will debate the war in Iraq, debate national security, the economy, and the rest of your legacy. Those debates will continue for years to come. But on how you handled Katrina, there is no debate."
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:19 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
No you don't, for that matter I don't, but I would accept it being a choice between bad and worse; and unlike people with convictions (such as financeguy) I expect you to be mute when it comes to a humanitarian intervention by the Obama administration.


the Iraq War was a humanitarian intervention?

some people are capable of making distinctions.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:55 PM   #239
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I love it.. a new bushism: "Misunderestimate"

i'm gonna miss these bushisms.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:08 PM   #240
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Watching snippets of that last press conference, I almost - ALMOST - felt sorry for him.

Then I remembered the last 8 years.
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