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Old 11-06-2008, 08:00 PM   #31
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Read this and tell me how it answers the question anitram and I asked you.
Are you saying I can't correct an impression someone has on my posts? The question showed the person didn't understand what "public life" means. The "public life" is in government. The tactics weren't employed by FoxNews but by the people leaking this information to FoxNews. FoxNews will pick up the scoop and since Palin is a "loser" it's easier to throw her into the trash bin than defend her.

FoxNews doesn't want a loser they want a winner so having Palin thrown under a bus and moving on to other options is their motive. The moderates don't like Palin's popularity. Yet those moderates blame Palin's performance with Couric with the downfall of the ticket. The right is torn between two options; move to the center, or move right.

If you're a conservative and watch FoxNews and see reports showing that Palin is a loose cannon bathrobe temper tantrum person it makes you say "let's move on to another leader." The leakers did this to poison any chances for 2012. It's working pretty good.
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Old 11-06-2008, 08:17 PM   #32
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Are you saying I can't correct an impression someone has on my posts? The question showed the person didn't understand what "public life" means. The "public life" is in government. The tactics weren't employed by FoxNews but by the people leaking this information to FoxNews. FoxNews will pick up the scoop and since Palin is a "loser" it's easier to throw her into the trash bin than defend her.

FoxNews doesn't want a loser they want a winner so having Palin thrown under a bus and moving on to other options is their motive. The moderates don't like Palin's popularity. Yet those moderates blame Palin's performance with Couric with the downfall of the ticket. The right is torn between two options; move to the center, or move right.

If you're a conservative and watch FoxNews and see reports showing that Palin is a loose cannon bathrobe temper tantrum person it makes you say "let's move on to another leader." The leakers did this to poison any chances for 2012. It's working pretty good.
"Public life" = government? Ok...

Well thanks for clearing that up, sorta... Because it originally sounded like you were somehow blaming the left and that Fox News was part of the "librul media".

You do realize those leaks were from McCain's team, right?
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Old 11-06-2008, 08:46 PM   #33
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"Public life" = government? Ok...

Well thanks for clearing that up, sorta... Because it originally sounded like you were somehow blaming the left and that Fox News was part of the "librul media".

You do realize those leaks were from McCain's team, right?
I look at McCain = moderate

Palin = Conservative

FoxNews is trying to make an understanding of what's next. Go moderate or go conservative. They aren't sure yet and most of the Republicans are just starting to grasp that. After a choice is made to which direction to go there will be some ground swell to take back congress and choose a new leader for president. Conservatives are also leery of Republicans from more left wing states. They look at them as the cause of the downfall by crossing the aisle and betraying their core beliefs. Porkbarrel Republicans do too much damage.

If Obama can keep this chaos going in the party he could easily get another 4years. Certainly stepping up attacks on Republicans in congress that try and filibuster Democrat initiatives will be another tactic. The Alinsky tactics require the campaigning fighting to continue at all times and shouldn't be stopped because an election is over. The fairness doctrine will be a huge blow to conservative talk radio if that passes. If that passes then conservatives will be mostly on the internet and specialty magazines like National Review. I'm still optimistic that some Democrats won't go for it. I hope I'm not naive on that. I've never seen a huge left wing take over in my adult life so far. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
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Old 11-06-2008, 08:55 PM   #34
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If Obama can keep this chaos going in the party he could easily get another 4years. Certainly stepping up attacks on Republicans in congress that try and filibuster Democrat initiatives will be another tactic. The Alinsky tactics require the campaigning fighting to continue at all times and shouldn't be stopped because an election is over.


But what you don't seem to be taking into account is that this infighting is originating directly from within the Republican party and the FOX network is reporting it (along with other more liberal media, to be fair, but it certainly seems like FOX is doing more than their share to turn on their own). Obama isn't applying any "Alinsky tactics" to cause this. The Republicans have to have a giant, cleansing blow-out, and then sort out all their shit on their own.
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:09 PM   #35
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Go moderate or go conservative. They aren't sure yet and most of the Republicans are just starting to grasp that. After a choice is made to which direction to go there will be some ground swell to take back congress and choose a new leader for president.
Unless the Dems screw up big time, this will not happen in 4 years. They're gonna have to go through an infighting stage(caused by no one but themselves) and that will just weaken them a little more before they figure out which way they are going to go, then they have to go through a kicking out phase once they figure out which route, and then they can try and take back Congress.

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The fairness doctrine will be a huge blow to conservative talk radio if that passes. If that passes then conservatives will be mostly on the internet and specialty magazines like National Review. I'm still optimistic that some Democrats won't go for it. I hope I'm not naive on that. I've never seen a huge left wing take over in my adult life so far. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
What evidence exactly do you have that anyone really wants the fairness doctrine back? I've asked you this before but I can't remember if you answered. The fact that conservatives are scared they will have to listen to the opposing view point and discuss it should tell you something. You should fear that kind of thought, but you perogative

God forbid conservatives try and get their news from real news sources, but then again they talk about science, they don't use studies that are dripping with agenda or bigotry, and they don't coddle...
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:27 PM   #36
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But what you don't seem to be taking into account is that this infighting is originating directly from within the Republican party and the FOX network is reporting it (along with other more liberal media, to be fair, but it certainly seems like FOX is doing more than their share to turn on their own). Obama isn't applying any "Alinsky tactics" to cause this. The Republicans have to have a giant, cleansing blow-out, and then sort out all their shit on their own.
Well this is my humble opinion:

The leaks on Palin weren't by Obama, but they were politically motivated to crush her future bids for 2012. What's the point of attacking someone in your own party after they lost unless you want them out of commission permenantly? They are similar tactics as employed by Obama but are done by McCain supporters (moderates). Palin (conservative) may still make a comeback but it's looking less likely now. She denied the accusations but who's going to believe her?

It's like when a soccer team wins the world cup with a particular style and the losing teams start to imitate it. Politicians ultimately want to win and will copy the winner. I mean even McCain used the slogan "Change" except it was "Change we can believe in."

If the attacks are personal and polarize people, as Alinsky would put it, then the ideas the conservatives stand for are completely off the table and not being looked at or considered. Once people are ridiculed then even supporters will turn on the ridculed person. These tactics will be used on other people like Jindal and they won't be immune because of ethnic background or identity politics. Conservatives have to stay on the message with their ideas and leave the personal attacks alone. If moderates want to imitate Obama they should just join the democrats and get it over with. In fact if McCain doesn't support Palin or denounce the attacks on her then it may be that he's trying to distance himself with the "Wasilla hick" conservative side. He's the one who chose her and now she's thrown in front of on coming traffic. It's just brutal.

When personal attacks are aimed at conservatives then they should stick to the issues or else the debate goes off track again and Jindal or any other person they choose will look toxic again and people won't want to defend him.

Also another area that Alinsky touches on is hypocrisy. If conservatives don't act conservative or didn't in the past you can bring that up as an argument to staunch debate as well. Conservatives have to do what they say or they are toast.

I actually think the conservatives are in deep enough trouble that 4 years from now they may not be much more unified than today.
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:36 PM   #37
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If moderates want to imitate Obama they should just join the democrats and get it over with. In fact if McCain doesn't support Palin or denounce the attacks on her then it may be that he's trying to distance himself with the "Wasilla hick" conservative side. He's the one who chose her and now she's thrown in front of on coming traffic. It's just brutal.

Oh please!!! Get off the Alinsky thing. Have you just recently started paying attention to politics? These tactics have been around forever. In fact Rove used them on McCain back in 2000. So quit the "if moderates want to imitate Obama" crap, it just makes you look incredibly uninformed and blind.
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:39 PM   #38
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Here's the future of the GOP.

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Old 11-06-2008, 09:50 PM   #39
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Oh please!!! Get off the Alinsky thing. Have you just recently started paying attention to politics? These tactics have been around forever. In fact Rove used them on McCain back in 2000. So quit the "if moderates want to imitate Obama" crap, it just makes you look incredibly uninformed and blind.
Well if Rove is such a master of these tactics then Conservatives haven't learned anything to let themselves be defeated by those same tactics so easily even if they have been around forever.

Don't underestimate how blindsided conservatives have been on this campaign. They are reeling right now like a Titanic sinking and everyone jumping ship and going in different directions. You can even see it on the fox news commentators and their bitterness.
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:54 PM   #40
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Here's the future of the GOP.

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YouTube - Bobby Jindal on Fox News - Nov. 5, 2008
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:07 PM   #41
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Well if Rove is such a master of these tactics then Conservatives haven't learned anything to let themselves be defeated by those same tactics so easily even if they have been around forever.
Well to be honest, both campaign ran these tactics but out of the two McCain's side much more... The problem is they just had too many things going against them, a failed 8 years, infighting, no consistant message, a barely vetted VP, and much much more.

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Don't underestimate how blindsided conservatives have been on this campaign. They are reeling right now like a Titanic sinking and everyone jumping ship and going in different directions. You can even see it on the fox news commentators and their bitterness.
It's their own fault if they were blindsided, many of us have seen this coming for a long time.
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:42 PM   #42
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Well this is my humble opinion:

The leaks on Palin weren't by Obama, but they were politically motivated to crush her future bids for 2012. What's the point of attacking someone in your own party after they lost unless you want them out of commission permenantly? They are similar tactics as employed by Obama but are done by McCain supporters (moderates). Palin (conservative) may still make a comeback but it's looking less likely now. She denied the accusations but who's going to believe her?

It's like when a soccer team wins the world cup with a particular style and the losing teams start to imitate it. Politicians ultimately want to win and will copy the winner. I mean even McCain used the slogan "Change" except it was "Change we can believe in."

If the attacks are personal and polarize people, as Alinsky would put it, then the ideas the conservatives stand for are completely off the table and not being looked at or considered. Once people are ridiculed then even supporters will turn on the ridculed person. These tactics will be used on other people like Jindal and they won't be immune because of ethnic background or identity politics. Conservatives have to stay on the message with their ideas and leave the personal attacks alone. If moderates want to imitate Obama they should just join the democrats and get it over with. In fact if McCain doesn't support Palin or denounce the attacks on her then it may be that he's trying to distance himself with the "Wasilla hick" conservative side. He's the one who chose her and now she's thrown in front of on coming traffic. It's just brutal.

When personal attacks are aimed at conservatives then they should stick to the issues or else the debate goes off track again and Jindal or any other person they choose will look toxic again and people won't want to defend him.

Also another area that Alinsky touches on is hypocrisy. If conservatives don't act conservative or didn't in the past you can bring that up as an argument to staunch debate as well. Conservatives have to do what they say or they are toast.

I actually think the conservatives are in deep enough trouble that 4 years from now they may not be much more unified than today.
I think you're looking for conspiracies or attributing motivations that simply aren't there. I believe the explanation is much more simple than the one you're putting forth: when something, in this case a political campaign, fails, it's human nature to look at what went wrong and to place blame. Sometimes this is done fairly, sometimes not. If you read the Newsweek McCain campaign insider articles I posted links to (along with a lot of other places I've read essentially the same thing), it's pretty clear that there were/are pro and anti Palin factions within the campaign. Each side is simply playing the blame game in order to make it look like they did all they could to elect McCain, and that the fault lies with the other side. Like I said, human nature. Not a particularly nice picture of human nature, but human nature nonetheless. Ultimately, the buck stops with McCain though, because even though she wasn't his first choice for VP, he did choose her.
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:45 PM   #43
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Ultimately, the buck stops with McCain though, because even though she wasn't his first choice for VP, he did choose her.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:26 PM   #44
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As long as the GOP is the party of bigotry, then they have no future beyond their present. The younger generations clearly reject the theocracy of their parents and grandparents that the GOP implicitly aspires for.
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:32 AM   #45
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sticks and stones..
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