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Old 07-03-2015, 02:08 PM   #286
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Let's not forget that the Catholic Church has not only fought against marriage equality; they've also fought against LGBTQ adoption, non-discrimination laws, and in some countries they've even fought against decriminalization of homosexuality. But they're the persecuted ones...


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This is what's changed, and where my sympathies for some Christians end.

Just because the laws of a country do not perfectly reflect your beliefs does not mean that you are suffering from discrimination.
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:19 PM   #287
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My father sincerely believes that, beginning with the loss of tax exemptions to churches, we are only a few years away from mass persecution of Christians in the United States.

I just try to change the topic.
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:43 PM   #288
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Your father and my father would get along.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:13 PM   #289
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My father sincerely believes that, beginning with the loss of tax exemptions to churches, we are only a few years away from mass persecution of Christians in the United States.

I just try to change the topic.


What would this persecution look like? And who would be doing it?
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:18 PM   #290
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The last vestige of bigotry is to play the victim. Just another of many signs that this type of ultra-right wing evangelism is dying out.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:28 PM   #291
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What would this persecution look like? And who would be doing it?
From things I have actually heard my parents say:
1. Religious schools could no longer fire people for being gay and in a relationship and/or married.
2. Religious institutions would be forced to perform gay marriages
3. Children would be "indoctrinated" in public schools that being gay is okay, and that gay marriage is okay
4. Florists/bakers/caterers/photographers/etc who refuse to provide service to gay ceremonies would be sued
5. Government employees would be forced to perform civil marriages against their religious beliefs

To which I would respond:
1. Persecution?
2. Not a thing
3. Persecution?
4. In the cases where the business owner has already signed a contract but opts out upon learning that the couple is gay, unless they've got a clause in their contract specifically allowing for that (and that kind of clause is still legal in their state...), I see nothing wrong here. And again, persecution?
5. Not persecution. When employed by the government, you are acting as an agent of the government, not an agent of your religion. If you cannot perform the duties your government requires of you as defined by law (again, the government's law, not your own religious law), the honorable thing to do would be to resign.
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Old 07-03-2015, 04:57 PM   #292
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At least attempted argument is made. My dad would simply say "what do you mean?" and then laugh.
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Old 07-03-2015, 06:27 PM   #293
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Genuine question for those of you whose parents hold such views - do they personally know any gay people, have gay friends or family members, etc?

My parents are also Catholic, they go to church, maybe twice a month and while they don't hold particularly conservative religious viewpoints (though my father may moreso than my mother), they'd probably be explicitly against same sex marriage IF we, their children, didn't introduce them to our gay friends, had them over to our houses, etc. I have quite a few gay friends, but two in particular I think completely changed how my parents view the community. They love these two men, who are not together - one is married to another man, one is single, and have had them over for dinners, family barbecues, our engagement parties and weddings, etc. Suddenly the image of a gay man in my parents' eyes wasn't your newspaper photograph of the gay man at a pride parade wearing chaps and penis beads but professionals who did very well, owned property, super educated, cultural, etc. The end result is that my parents likely still feel uncomfortable by the idea of same sex marriage on some level and are probably thrilled all their children ended up in hetero marriages BUT they would also never vote for a party that restricts same sex marriage, nor would they say offensive things about it, nor do they live in fear of "the gayz" taking over or anything of the sort.
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Old 07-03-2015, 06:31 PM   #294
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5. Government employees would be forced to perform civil marriages against their beliefs

Welcome to the club. I have to have the children of gay parents in my classroom, and I can't even say that their parents are wrong and evil and the cause of earthquakes.

The bullshit is that some of the very people screaming about their "right" to make their religion the law are the ones who shit themselves about "sharia law" being imposed in the US. Good gravy. (I have no proof of that; I'm just thinking out loud.)


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Old 07-03-2015, 06:33 PM   #295
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My parents are also Catholic, they go to church, maybe twice a month and while they don't hold particularly conservative religious viewpoints (though my father may moreso than my mother), they'd probably be explicitly against same sex marriage IF we, their children, didn't introduce them to our gay friends, had them over to our houses, etc.
Something like this happened with my partner's parents. They are hardcore Mormons, exceedingly conservative socially - until one of their daughters became a performing ice skater and starting bringing conspicuously gay friends around. Then they started changing their tune and are now openly supportive of LGBT rights.
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:09 PM   #296
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I got sucked into a rabbit hole of conservative Cheistian "reaction" pieces to the SCOTUS decision, and what I'm struck with is the understanding of homosexuality as a "sin" because it's seen as a "practice." It's like stealing, cheating, addiction, etc. There's a (likely deliberate) unwillingness to understand homosexuality as something much more akin to gender or race -- that is something someone *is* rather than something someone *does*. They understand that there's all sorts of sin out there, but they seem to feel that homosexuality is now aggressively celebrated by the culture, like binge drinking or cannabis. I find it willful, but maybe some people really do think it's just about fucking.

The best way to combat this is for gay people to, firstly, be out, and, secondly, to share their lives with others. Certainly, there are differences. But not really too many.
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Old 07-03-2015, 08:56 PM   #297
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Genuine question for those of you whose parents hold such views - do they personally know any gay people, have gay friends or family members, etc?
My parents have a bisexual son and they don't even know it

My parents divorced when I was a baby. My mom and stepdad, the most spiritual of my parents, might take some getting used to the idea if I suddenly brought home a boyfriend one day. They always told me though that me being their son trumps anything else, so whether I was gay or straight or whatever in between they would love me just the same, and I believe them 100%. It would be a shock at first but it would soon be forgotten, and we would probably all have a good chuckle together at their initial reaction later on. The reason they don't know is because I only came to terms with it myself in the last couple years and it was never an issue when I lived with them; I live halfway across the continent from them now, and there's no chance of me bringing a boyfriend home that far anytime soon. Anything beyond that I have no desire to share with my mother

My dad and my stepmom, avowed apathetic atheists both, likely would have a BIG issue with it. My uncle came out to the family back in the early 90s and left his wife for his (now) husband; my dad only started speaking to him again at my grandmother's funeral 5 years ago, and even now the only contact they have is once every few months when my uncle sends his brother an e-mail making sure everyone is still alive. We all got a Christmas card one year from them that included a picture of him, his husband, and their kids from both of their previous marriages. It was a beautiful picture under any circumstances - my dad chuckled at it, said "look at that" like it was meant to be a gag, and tossed the card in the garbage. I don't know if they would go so far as to cut off contact or disown me if they found out I was bisexual, but I can't think of any good that would come of it, so I'd rather it just be none of their business and they not know.

Faith certainly isn't the be-all, end-all in my situation.
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Old 07-03-2015, 10:00 PM   #298
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Genuine question for those of you whose parents hold such views - do they personally know any gay people, have gay friends or family members, etc?
Not really, no. I think if anyone came out in western Maryland, pitchforks and torches would shortly follow.

My father acknowledges that my positive experiences with the gay population has perhaps fostered greater sympathy, but honestly, supporting their rights makes sense to me on an intellectual level as well.

I wish he felt the same, but oh well. Life is too short to fight with family.
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Old 07-03-2015, 11:42 PM   #299
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The Even Gayer than the Gay thread

There are gays in western MD. Several of them have second homes in Deep Creek. ;-)
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Old 07-03-2015, 11:53 PM   #300
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I got sucked into a rabbit hole of conservative Cheistian "reaction" pieces to the SCOTUS decision, and what I'm struck with is the understanding of homosexuality as a "sin" because it's seen as a "practice." It's like stealing, cheating, addiction, etc. There's a (likely deliberate) unwillingness to understand homosexuality as something much more akin to gender or race -- that is something someone *is* rather than something someone *does*. They understand that there's all sorts of sin out there, but they seem to feel that homosexuality is now aggressively celebrated by the culture, like binge drinking or cannabis. I find it willful, but maybe some people really do think it's just about fucking.

The best way to combat this is for gay people to, firstly, be out, and, secondly, to share their lives with others. Certainly, there are differences. But not really too many.

Homosexuality IS both something that you practice and something that you are. So is heterosexuality. Hell, so is pedophilia. I don't think in every case it's someone unwilling to agree that it's not a choice (though, usually it is). But often times religion is the justification for an otherwise learned social stigma against being gay. Doesn't matter if they think it's a choice or not, they still hate it.
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