My thuggish attitude is born of a fear that this party will become a fascist regime, their success so far mirrors the Nazi party's ascendancy to government exactly and yes, I'd do anything in my power to prevent that. Perhaps you don't quite realise what a threat the BNP pose, not to democracy but to people? Yes, I would've systematically listed every wrong they've done, but I presumed most European people reading this thread already knew.
The EU Elections - The Results.
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My thuggish attitude is born of a fear that this party will become a fascist regime, their success so far mirrors the Nazi party's ascendancy to government exactly and yes, I'd do anything in my power to prevent that. Perhaps you don't quite realise what a threat the BNP pose, not to democracy but to people? Yes, I would've systematically listed every wrong they've done, but I presumed most European people reading this thread already knew.
vaz02
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Where do you people stand on the Peace Process ?
NF and BNP are different. The BNP are trying to become a legitimate party. More Anti democracy protests in London today.
NF and BNP are different. The BNP are trying to become a legitimate party. More Anti democracy protests in London today.
Not all of us are European here. I know plenty of Americans who are following the EU elections closely and are stunned by what happened.
As for me, while I am a bit concerned that the BNP is gaining momentum, I do think it is a natural reaction to the extremism coming from the immigrants in the UK. I've seen videos of radical Muslims in London bashing the UK, saying they are going to turn the country into an Islamic state. It may be a small minority doing that, but it is a disturbing minority.
I don't think denying the BNP free speech is the answer; it will only intensify their following because they'll see themselves as being persecuted.
I've always held that view - until now, and I'm just not sure. Putting them on the television and giving them a voice seems to have only legitimised them in the public eye. If they weren't given that voice then they would eventually crumble as the National Front did - but now they stand a chance of having power. Well, they already have it, they have a voice in the EU. They're representing me and I do NOT want that. So no, I don't know, but I feel the pain of the protesters and, had I been in London, would probably have joined them.
And excuse the European slur - I just meant that the people I was talking with then were Europeans and already aware of the BNP's campaign, so I didn't feel the need to reiterate. I'm sure a lot of people outside of Europe also know what's going on, and have far more constructive ideas than I as to what we can do.
I agree - there certainly is a difference between the NF and the BNP. The fact that Griffin was one of the former, however, doesn't exactly endear them in the public eye.
Bonoa
Refugee
Of course they can't go on beating people of other ethnic origin in the streets.
Even Hitlers NSDAP was a legitimate party back in the days!I'm glad that people continue to protest!! Being openly racist should never be legitimized!
Bonoa
Refugee
Did Partygirlvox ever had a 'tuggish attitude against free speech'? She only explains why the BNP got so many votes and walk the line of what's legal and what's not. And that the law concerning sowing hatred and openly discriminate should be changed. It doesn't mean she's against free speech!
The BNP have a thuggish attitude. They discriminate and sow hatred against ethnic groups.
Instead of explaining in a mormal way why mass immigration isn't good for Britain, like a decent conservative party would do, they talk about 'parasites who dry up the sources of Britain'. Or do you think that is a decent opinion?
Bonoa
Refugee
vaz02
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
No mainstream party talks about immigration because in this country you are deemed a racist to even suggest we have a problem. If you check what NG is saying, he called illegal immigrants and bogus asylum seekers parasites. I don't see any problem with that to be honest. He said if you are in this country legally you have nothing to fear. The media have blown this out of all proportion as they like to sensationalise everything. People haven't given the party the chance to speak so how can they possibly defend themselves or put there point across ? Instead they get secondhand drivel from hack journo's hell bent on selling papers and scare mongering the public.
On a side note, I don't agree with all this “ don't give them a platform “ bullshit. Who put those people in charge of who I should and shouldn't listen to ? Seems like a fascist policy in itself yeah ?
Those anti democracy protesters seem the type who terrorise scientists who test on animals and in an act of revenge dig up the bodies of family relatives.
On a side note, I don't agree with all this “ don't give them a platform “ bullshit. Who put those people in charge of who I should and shouldn't listen to ? Seems like a fascist policy in itself yeah ?
Those anti democracy protesters seem the type who terrorise scientists who test on animals and in an act of revenge dig up the bodies of family relatives.
Bonoa
Refugee
@ Vaz: the man is a racist! Of course he only talks about illegal immigrants and bogus asylum seekers on national tv, but it's obvious he'd rather see all of them, even the legal ones and the ones living in the UK for years, leave the country as soon as possible.
A lot of BNP'ers are former National Fronters, who learned how to talk and discuss instead of trashing another curry restaurant and beating up black people in the streets. They understand they have to behave in order not to be seen as an antisocial group.
Being openly racist will not be tolerated on national tv and in the House of Common, but many people know what BNP really stand for, and I'm not talking about the opponents, but about half of the people who voted for them who don't like 'black in the Union Jack'.
As Partygirlvox already pointed out, these BNP'ers are very intelligent. Intelligent enough to not say particular things and to do say what can be explained as 'underbelly feelings'.
By the way, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't other conservatives, such as the Tories have ideas about immigration?
A lot of BNP'ers are former National Fronters, who learned how to talk and discuss instead of trashing another curry restaurant and beating up black people in the streets. They understand they have to behave in order not to be seen as an antisocial group.
Being openly racist will not be tolerated on national tv and in the House of Common, but many people know what BNP really stand for, and I'm not talking about the opponents, but about half of the people who voted for them who don't like 'black in the Union Jack'.
As Partygirlvox already pointed out, these BNP'ers are very intelligent. Intelligent enough to not say particular things and to do say what can be explained as 'underbelly feelings'.
By the way, correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't other conservatives, such as the Tories have ideas about immigration?
Bonoa
Refugee
The White Power shirt says it all: Other races are inferiour to the white race. Nick Griffin racist? Noooo!
1488 LOL!
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Well, the German NPD works together with some Islamist groups fighting their common enemy: the Jews. There is always minorities associating themselves with right-wing nuts. It's a puzzle to me, but it happens.
I think it's more dangerous to suppress any speech we don't feel comfortable with and to isolate these groups and forcing them to cover their demands. Because that, in itself, is counter-productive in that they will find a way to spout their bullshit in ways that simple-minded people will understand much less and hence they might feel represented best by those parties. Much better is to let them speak freely and then confront them with the bullshit they are releasing. But a free speech limited to the speech that comforts our ears is dangerous.
I also think there is quite a few differences between the BNP and the way the Nazis assumed power. Doesn't make them less dangerous, but I just don't agree that drowning out their voices would be the solution.
Bonoa
Refugee
That's a good point you make.
What I find most dangerous is that a lot of people don't see the dangers of groups like that.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
I don't know how the other parties handled that. But if they didn't call the BNP politicians out on what they said and let them speak freely without countering their arguments constructively, then this picture might well have come across. Hence, it's important that the journalists and the politicians from other parties are engaging in discussions where they correct the bullshit that was being spouted directly.
Salome
you are what you is
80%+ of the people vote on who they see, what the voice sounds like and whether they understand most of the words the person says on tellie
they wouldn't recognize a political program if it fell on their heads
in Belgium the extreme right wing party lost a lot of votes because people have finally gotten bored of their leader
the UK hates Gordon Brown = left wing loses a lot
the Dutch are people who like nothing better than moaning so anything related to the 2 main parties in government now got hammered
you'd almost wonder whether people know it was a European election
the Swedish Pirate Party got a seat though
so yeah
they wouldn't recognize a political program if it fell on their heads
in Belgium the extreme right wing party lost a lot of votes because people have finally gotten bored of their leader
the UK hates Gordon Brown = left wing loses a lot
the Dutch are people who like nothing better than moaning so anything related to the 2 main parties in government now got hammered
you'd almost wonder whether people know it was a European election
the Swedish Pirate Party got a seat though
so yeah
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Yeah, the usual "You don't have anything to fear if you just do what I say" talk. Any person that is calling any other person a parasite loses any authority and can't be deemed a respected politician anymore.
I don't think the poor BNP is just a victim of the evil press. They are just adapting their language so they come across as being electable.
Absolutely, this. People are reacting to their initial behaviour - the BNP are provoking outrage and being hypocritical in their accusations of others responding to it.
I want to believe in this, that should the BNP be questioned, they'd plunge in the general publics opinion - but I just don't trust the british publics opinion anymore, that they've actually voted for this party says a lot. I think people pick and choose what they want to know about a party, and Griffin wouldn't loose any credibility in being made to look like he hasn't a clue because people already know this about him, and they're voting anyway!
I don't know what can be done, perhaps sticking him on Question Time with the other politicians would work but I don't think many MP's would want to discuss matters calmly with him. I know I couldn't!
I agree, though, that preventing them from debating allows them to speak freely anyway... it all seems like a most frustrating catch 22.
Exactly, Bonoa, this says it all. It doesn't matter how the BNP wrap themselves up in 'no, we're not racist!' protests, at the heart of it this what they all believe. Ultimately, it's based on ignorance. They just somehow manage to fit their 'arguments' around this.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
The BNP is not ruling the country any time soon, you shouldn't sacrifice freedom of expression over a bunch of nativist scum.
I don't agree with the xenophobic nonsense trotted out by political leaders and the media, but I wouldn't want to make such speech illegal. The legal protection to tell people things that they don't want to hear is inherently valuable, and your willingness to toss it away over assorted racists and disenfranchised voters betrays an authoritarian streak.
I've thought over what matters to me politically, and an environment of free inquiry, freedom of speech, and equal protection by the state are principles which I abide by. I don't have much time for parties which violate what's important to me, perhaps you should think about what principles matter to you.
I did not at any point say I wanted to make such speech illegal - I don't think these people should be able to call themselves a political party, and receive funding, and be on the ballot. There's a difference. And, yes, the BNP are closer to having a hand in legislature than you may think, particularly if the electoral reforms we've been hearing about turns out to be a proportional representation voting system for MPs. I don't care whether I sound authoritarian or not; when faced with such a frightening prospect as these people having direct control of my life and many others, I would do anything in my power to prevent that. Even if it meant calling on the laws against inciting racial hatred through speech we have in this country, that Nick Griffin seems to have successfully evaded too many times in the past.
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Those laws are designed to take away freedoms, and when they are used to prosecute they draw sympathy towards the apparently victimised hater.
I really disagree here. Most of the public doesn't care one bit when people are prosecuted under hate speech laws - in fact, I'd venture a guess that most of the public is more likely supportive of the prosecution. The only sympathy drawn is usually from like-minded people and some civil liberties groups.
There are good arguments to be made in favour of freedom of speech, but this sympathy one just isn't one of them, IMO.
Cactus Annie
Refugee
Thanks for this thread partygirlvox.
I haven't read this thread all the way through so I'm sorry if this message appears as though I have just jumped into a discussion but I just wanted to say that although I never voted for them I think UKIP are a good party to vote for. Labour's handling over immigration has been appalling. Under the current system anyone can just arrive here, go into any job where they claim 60% of their income tax back and they are made for life. They only have to be here for a few years and they can earn enough money to buy a home outright in their own country. They can even claim benefits despite the fact that they aren't citizens of this country. It seems that these system benefits them and there's very little benefit for Britain. It puts a strain on the system especcially with increasing job loses.
I haven't read this thread all the way through so I'm sorry if this message appears as though I have just jumped into a discussion but I just wanted to say that although I never voted for them I think UKIP are a good party to vote for. Labour's handling over immigration has been appalling. Under the current system anyone can just arrive here, go into any job where they claim 60% of their income tax back and they are made for life. They only have to be here for a few years and they can earn enough money to buy a home outright in their own country. They can even claim benefits despite the fact that they aren't citizens of this country. It seems that these system benefits them and there's very little benefit for Britain. It puts a strain on the system especcially with increasing job loses.
Alas, you've been quite hideously misinformed. We're members of the EU and have freedom of movement (and employment) between member countries, we can go where we want and so can others, basically speaking. And on the topic of immigration, we take far fewer immigrants that other countries and if you want facts that are in context, read this -
Facts about immigration into the United Kingdom - Communities and neighbourhoods - Communities and Local Government
"427,000 workers from eight EU accession states successfully applied for work in the UK from May 2004 - June 2006. This may sound like a lot, but it represents less than one percent of the UK's population.
The UK's population is getting older, meaning that more working age people are needed to prop up the world's fourth largest industrial economy. By 2026 pensioners will outnumber children by two million. Also as immigrants are on average younger than UK-born people, they are less likely to need to claim a pension and will contribute to the economy for a longer period.
There is a current shortage of highly-skilled people in key sectors such as the NHS, public services and the IT industry which is being met by new migrants.
As the UK's population becomes more highly skilled and educated, there will be more and more jobs that people do not want to do because they are viewed as demeaning. All of these factors have come together to create immigration demands.
One study by the University of Swansea predicts that we need to increase immigration by a fifth to prevent a population decline caused by a shrinking birth rate and subsequent economic crisis.
The belief that Britain has a particularly high rate of immigration is false. About 5 per cent of the UK population was born abroad. In Germany, the figure is 12.5 per cent; in France, 10 per cent; and in the Netherlands, 10.1 per cent."
And enough of all this hideous nationalism. Nothing breeds hatred quicker than ideas of supremacy based on ones birthplace. We're all citizens of the world, not VIP members of a particular country.
p.s. none of this is personal Cactus Annie! I'm just angered by this argument in general.
Cactus Annie
Refugee
I heard that Britain has one of the most relaxed laws in the whole EU. In the very small working class town where I live in 3 of the towns biggest employers employ mostly EU, non-British immigrants. One of these employers is where my mum works and she's been told this by her manager. He's hardly going to lie to her is he? I was speaking to a guy once who told me that he was made redundant because his manager told him that he has to employ a certain percentage of non British workers by law. We are in a recession, people are losing their jobs. How can they get a job when they are competing with extra people. These may be menial jobs but they are also people's livelihoods. What are they supposed to live on? Fresh air?
Bonoa
Refugee
*sorry, my computer is having issues!*
Bonoa
Refugee
To me it's the same old clichè: "They took my job!", "They have a villa back in Morocco", "When you're black, you have more chance to get a job", etc.
At least in The Netherlands I know there has indeed been a policy a where companies got a funding from the government when they had a certain percentage of ethnic minorities/ foreign employees, but that was at the time when the economy was still blooming. Now they've turned that back.
I remember a form which you had to fill in where they wanted to know when and where your parents were born, but the only thing I filled in on that form was that I wish "not to cooperate with this modern non-Jew declaration and I will not be reduced as a number". This information is private and no one in the company has a damn thing to do with it. (My father is Dutch, my mother is from Indonesia and had the Dutch nationality. Her mother was an Indonesian, her father half Indonesian and half British. He fought against the Japs when he was in the Dutch navy during WWII. I'm born and raised here and still they will have the dirty right to call me a foreigner???)
Besides, positive discrimination is discrimination too and it leads to nasty forms of discrimination! I can certainly understand Cactus Annies point of view! The government is to blame partly for the clichès mentioned above.
At least in The Netherlands I know there has indeed been a policy a where companies got a funding from the government when they had a certain percentage of ethnic minorities/ foreign employees, but that was at the time when the economy was still blooming. Now they've turned that back.
I remember a form which you had to fill in where they wanted to know when and where your parents were born, but the only thing I filled in on that form was that I wish "not to cooperate with this modern non-Jew declaration and I will not be reduced as a number". This information is private and no one in the company has a damn thing to do with it. (My father is Dutch, my mother is from Indonesia and had the Dutch nationality. Her mother was an Indonesian, her father half Indonesian and half British. He fought against the Japs when he was in the Dutch navy during WWII. I'm born and raised here and still they will have the dirty right to call me a foreigner???)
Besides, positive discrimination is discrimination too and it leads to nasty forms of discrimination! I can certainly understand Cactus Annies point of view! The government is to blame partly for the clichès mentioned above.
Cactus Annie, did you just read a thing I posted? Or must you insiste on spouting things so evidentally from the pages of the daily mail, so evidently written to cause such public anger and hate? That sells papers; the truth doesn't. And the truth is that the employment problem we're currently facing will NOT go away should we suddenly decide to rid the country of all non-english people. It's just easier to think that. We don't have the most lax laws in the EU, the whole point of the EU is that we all have THE SAME LAWS!
Bonoa
Refugee
That's not a project to realize! That would only count for ecomomic refugees, who can't have an asylum seeker status in European countries.
The majority of political refugees can't go back to their country, even if they want to!
People like Indian ICT professionals for example, are planning to go back to their countries anyway, it's the same as what we call 'expats' when Europeans go to work as a professional abroad for a few years. (why are they called expats in the first place while foreign professionals are seen and treated as foreigners?)
No one leaves his/ her country for fun. They are forced to.
vaz02
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Partygirlvox we have different employment laws to the rest of Europe, we dont have the protection of our European neighbors. It costs more to make someone redundant in Belgium than it does in the UK.
The British government doesnt know how many illegal immigrants we have in this country. FACT.
The British government expected somewhere between 40-100k Migrants when the EU expanded. We ended up getting close to 400-500k.
"As the UK's population becomes more highly skilled and educated, there will be more and more jobs that people do not want to do because they are viewed as demeaning. "
You do know we dont produce much in this country any more ? where are these jobs going to come from we are also losing jobs in the Tertiary sector to places like India for example.
The free movement policy is one of the worst policies i have ever heard in my entire life. LMAO. British workers can not compete with those who come to the country from Eastern Europe for example and who are willing to work for much much less. People have family's and mortgages to pay, these people have paid into the system all their life. Why cant we adopt a similar system Australia have ? maybe then we can cherry pick the cream of the crop, a system which would fill the SKILLS gap.
We also have a housing crisis in this country at the moment, many British citizens who have paid into the system should get priority ahead of these migrants.
I will rant more after tea.
Also the " citizens of the world " talk would only work in an ideal world where we are all equal. The world is not fair and equal due to Legal, Political, Economic, Social and Technological differences.
I dont like the new positive discrimination law either. What happened to the right person for the right job ?
The British government doesnt know how many illegal immigrants we have in this country. FACT.
The British government expected somewhere between 40-100k Migrants when the EU expanded. We ended up getting close to 400-500k.
"As the UK's population becomes more highly skilled and educated, there will be more and more jobs that people do not want to do because they are viewed as demeaning. "
You do know we dont produce much in this country any more ? where are these jobs going to come from we are also losing jobs in the Tertiary sector to places like India for example.
The free movement policy is one of the worst policies i have ever heard in my entire life. LMAO. British workers can not compete with those who come to the country from Eastern Europe for example and who are willing to work for much much less. People have family's and mortgages to pay, these people have paid into the system all their life. Why cant we adopt a similar system Australia have ? maybe then we can cherry pick the cream of the crop, a system which would fill the SKILLS gap.
We also have a housing crisis in this country at the moment, many British citizens who have paid into the system should get priority ahead of these migrants.
I will rant more after tea.
Also the " citizens of the world " talk would only work in an ideal world where we are all equal. The world is not fair and equal due to Legal, Political, Economic, Social and Technological differences.
I dont like the new positive discrimination law either. What happened to the right person for the right job ?
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