The Ethics of Infanticide

[INDY500]

I believe that the life of a person begins at conception.

And anyone that argues otherwise is a fool (see Barack Obama and "above my pay grade"). But when does personhood begin? I believe that occurs at viability (see Barack Obama and Illinois State Senate votes on "born alive" legislation).

 

[Jive Turkey]

Ya, but you guys only believe that because you believe god reached down and dropped a soul into the zygote. Poof! Life! Everyone else knows it's much more nuanced than that

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Most people who have abortions do so in the very start of the pregnancy to begin with. Most places don't even allow it after a certain point unless there's some sort of absolute, dire, truly life-threatening emergency anyway. And I think the reason for that is the sort INDY refers to, by then it's pretty well formed into an actual baby and such.

I've always said once the baby's capable of surviving outside the womb I understand not supporting abortion unless, like stated, it was some major life or death type of situation.

 

[INDY500]

Ya, but you guys only believe that because you believe god reached down and dropped a soul into the zygote. Poof! Life! Everyone else knows it's much more nuanced than that

I believe that because I have a nephew that was born 8 weeks premature and medical technology and the skill of his doctors keep him alive. I'd hate to think that, in the operating room next door, the life of a human fetus the exact same age could be terminated in a matter of minutes for no particular reason.

Nuanced enough?

 

[INDY500]

I've always said once the baby's capable of surviving outside the womb I understand not supporting abortion unless, like stated, it was some major life or death type of situation.

My point about agreement has just been made. This is how most people feel, most people not profiteering off abortion (on either side) or running for national office (on either side) that is.

 

[Liesje]

Yeah is it really that surprising that most pro-choice people don't ever plan on having an abortion? I know I don't. I have my reasons and couldn't do it, but luckily my reasons are my own and my choice is between me, my spouse, and my doctor and it should stay that way.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I believe that because I have a nephew that was born 8 weeks premature and medical technology and the skill of his doctors keep him alive. I'd hate to think that, in the operating room next door, the life of a human fetus the exact same age could be terminated in a matter of minutes for no particular reason.

Nuanced enough?

I worded that a little more rudely than I should have. Sorry (and not because of your story). But 8 weeks premature is a long way into pregnancy, so we are on the same page at least at this point. I was more addressing your other point about conception

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

My point about agreement has just been made. This is how most people feel, most people not profiteering off abortion (on either side) or running for national office (on either side) that is.

Extremists ruin things for any discussion. Most pro-choice people aren't pro-abortion, like Liseje said, most have no plans on such a thing unless they absolutely feel it would be necessary. But they also understand the issue isn't so black and white for everyone. So do most pro-lifers. I understand and can respect the viewpoint of pro-lifers, definitely. I think most pro-lifers show sympathy, too, and try and take reasonable steps to make sure this is less likely to be an issue for a woman (by supporting sex ed, or supporting the idea of adoption and adopting kids themselves, or working in the healthcare business to try and help women have pregnancies without complications, or whatever). I know most pro-lifers see the people screaming outside the clinics with their scare tactic pictures, or the people who say to just ban it and that'll solve the problem full stop, as not at all helpful to the cause.

And really, since it is a legal procedure and all that sort of thing, I don't get why politicians think they need to get involved in the debate at all. I really don't care about their views on a subject that's none of their concern. I want them to focus on things that actually will affect the country as a whole. Like the economy. Or foreign policy. Or the national debt. Or ANYTHING else of that sort. Abortion is simply a hot button issue that they know will stir up the base, on both ends. They know there's nothing they can do about it in reality and know if they tried to take on Roe v Wade as a whole it'd be a mess, but the issue still comes up every single election cycle at some point and it's insane.

 

[the iron horse]

The care of human life and happiness and not their destruction is the first and only legitimate object of good government.”

~ Thomas Jefferson

 

[coolian2]

ooh, i know this one!

irrelevant quotes for 20 points, john.

 

[Jive Turkey]

ooh, i know this one!

irrelevant quotes for 20 points, john.

And from an atheist, no less. Granted, he's too ignorant to know he's quoting one

 

[cobl04]

The care of human life and happiness and not their destruction is the first and only legitimate object of good government.”

~ Thomas Jefferson

Don't you have any of your own thoughts on the subject?

 

[Irvine511]

And anyone that argues otherwise is a fool (see Barack Obama and "above my pay grade"). But when does personhood begin? I believe that occurs at viability (see Barack Obama and Illinois State Senate votes on "born alive" legislation).

i vote to trust women.

 

[trojanchick99]

i vote to trust women.

But, women are all emotional and wanting constant sex. We cannot be trusted.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

We're either sluts or we're too frigid/prudeish. Can't seem to win either way.

 

[INDY500]

For all the crap being given to Iron Horse shouldn't we expect the poster who started this thread to chime in?

I'd actually like to hear Nathan's thoughts on this topic.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Getting back on topic...

It's these people such as Francesca Minerva who give ammunition to the conservatives, who believe all liberals think like her. I remember Glenn Beck mentioned people like her on his show (Note: I never had watched his show; my parents are big fans of him. Try not to feel sorry for me).

But this is no different than blaming the victim. In this case, a "liberal" person being attacked and her words being used to generalise against an extremely heterogeneous mass of people.

 

[nathan1977]

For all the crap being given to Iron Horse shouldn't we expect the poster who started this thread to chime in?

I'd actually like to hear Nathan's thoughts on this topic.

I personally find the slippery slope both A) an ever-encroaching reality, and B) horrifying.

 

[Irvine511]

Has there been an upswing in infanticides -- or even murder -- since Roe v Wade?

(or just the opposite)

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I have heard some pretty disturbing stories of mothers murdering their babies over the years. But I don't know if that's part of a trend or just a weird, frightening exception.

 

[Jive Turkey]

So one person mentions it (purely analytically and not at all suggesting it be done for real) and suddenly we're sliding down the slippery slope?

 

[maycocksean]

I don't know that this is the "slippery slope." The reaction among all the "abortion-loving lefties on this forum" has been uniformly one of horror and condemnation.

I don't think that it's either "life begins at conception" or we end up ready to kill any kid under the age of two who isn't perfect.

 

[Jive Turkey]

or we end up ready to kill any kid under the age of two who isn't perfect.

Better make it 3. Some kids turn out to be real jerks after their 2nd birthday

 

[INDY500]

I personally find the slippery slope both A) an ever-encroaching reality, and B) horrifying.

Well there's two slippery slopes. The "abortion is the lynchpin in the culture of death (abortion, euthanasia, human embryonic stem cells research, prenatal screening, organ harvesting)" slippery slope and then the "any restrictions on abortion now will eventually return women to the back-alley for abortions" slippery slope.

Speaking as a medical professional rather than a conservative, I think present and future advances in hi-tech medicine, fetal surgeries, embryology and biological research will, at the least, cause society and individuals to; gain different perspectives, rethink their views, and examine their consciences regarding the legal status of fetuses.

We've already seen this trend, for example, with fetal homicide laws, the sharp decline in the number of medical students training to perform abortions, and the public rebuking of pregnant women who smoke or consume alcohol.

As a conservative, I hope this is the direction society heads because, I too, am horrified (and have read enough science fiction ) to see where medical technology could take us otherwise.

 

[Irvine511]

So one person mentions it (purely analytically and not at all suggesting it be done for real) and suddenly we're sliding down the slippery slope?

Rick Santorum is worried about your thoughts.

 

[PhilsFan]

Dear Lord.

 

[INDY500]

Dear Lord.

My first thought is that your complete lack of curiosity or objectivity would be a detriment to someone entering the field of journalism, but on second thought it's probably an asset. The modus operandi of much of journalism today being to create a narrative and then seek out stories to support that narrative.

Being a good reporter in search of "news" or the "truth" being not nearly as important as being a bien-pensant reporter.

 

[The Sad Punk]

Far as I can tell, the past hundred-two hundred years or so have been the only times in history where we haven't been regularly conducting infanticide collectively, and I think it's best we kept it that way. We've got a pretty good thing going here.

(totally pro-choice here, but I like kids).

 

[PhilsFan]

My first thought is that your complete lack of curiosity or objectivity would be a detriment to someone entering the field of journalism, but on second thought it's probably an asset. The modus operandi of much of journalism today being to create a narrative and then seek out stories to support that narrative.

Being a good reporter in search of "news" or the "truth" being not nearly as important as being a bien-pensant reporter.

You know, I considered taking this opportunity to talk about my journalistic style and describe how you're full of shit, but you and I both know you're just being an asshole. And hey, I probably deserve it for posting something so simple that doesn't encourage discussion, but yeah, we both know you don't know shit about how I actually conduct myself when it comes to writing stories, so let's just move on.

 

[PhilsFan]

So, my full thoughts: I think this "controversy" is really silly, because no one has actually suggested making baby killing legal. It's just an opportunity for pro-life people to make a slippery slope argument. It was irresponsible to post this research, because it's really stupid. No one is going to argue with them that babies are conscious enough to understand they are being killed. That doesn't matter at all. That's not what this discussion is about.

This has absolutely nothing to do with abortion.