The drink driving laws are a form of tyranny

[financeguy]

anything that remotely inconveniences a libertarian is tyranny.

they want what they want when they want it, and fuck off if you don't like it.

it's awesome being a libertarian.

Right, ok, funny. But given the US cops have just killed a citizen yet again ( Man dies after being Tasered in subway by L.A. deputy - On Deadline - USATODAY.com : all in a day's work for the 'protect and serve' brigade), perhaps it's about time the libertarian argument was given a hearing, don't you think?

 

[toscano]

Right, ok, funny. But given the US cops have just killed a citizen yet again ( Man dies after being Tasered in subway by L.A. deputy - On Deadline - USATODAY.com : all in a day's work for the 'protect and serve' brigade), perhaps it's about time the libertarian argument was given a hearing, don't you think?

Maybe he shouldn't have been attacking an armed Sheriff's Deputy, or is that a Libertarian right too ?

Of course, he COULD have just answered the damn question.

 

[financeguy]

Maybe he shouldn't have been attacking an armed Sheriff's Deputy, or is that a Libertarian right too ?

Of course, he COULD have just answered the damn question.

Words fail me.

 

[toscano]

Words fail me.

Just as they failed the guy in question. One was all he needed, "yes" or "no".

 

[financeguy]

Just as they failed the guy in question. One was all he needed, "yes" or "no".

Boiling frog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[toscano]

Boiling frog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[financeguy]

Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think I am probably wasting my time with you, you have overdosed on statist Koolaid for too long.

However, I will just ask one question.

Can you outline the circumstances in which you consider it acceptable for a citizen's life to be terminated for 'not answering a question'?

 

[Irvine511]

perhaps it's about time the libertarian argument was given a hearing, don't you think?

in my experience, libertarian "arguments" amount to little more than "i do what i want" utopianism. they're, at heart, irresponsible, though they cloak themselves in a misunderstanding of "responsibility."

being opposed to the police tasering people to death has nothing to do with libertarianism.

 

[toscano]

I think I am probably wasting my time with you, you have overdosed on statist Koolaid for too long.

However, I will just ask one question.

Can you outline the circumstances in which you consider it acceptable for a citizen's life to be terminated for 'not answering a question'?

Since all we have to go is the published report, it's clear to even remedial readers that his life wasn't "terminated" for not answering a question.

He allegedly repeatedly attacked a Sheriff's deputy, most of us would have gotten the message after 1 tasering that maybe it's not a good idea to keep attacking the man in uniform with the weapon.

Was excess forced used ? Maybe, maybe not. Until witness step forward and the inevitable cell phone video surfaces we'll never know.

What IS clear though is that "given the US cops have just killed a citizen yet again" is hardly a statement free from bias and as long as that is the approach you take in light of the available information, then you are definitely wasting your time with me.

 

[Kieran McConville]

For the record I find heavy-handed police use of tasers to be very troubling, and am no fan of automatic cap-doffing when it comes to the boys and girls in blue.

On the other hand... not a libertarian, so much. I still believe the drink driving laws are probably not a tyranny, nor that seatbelts lead to pussy ass wimps.

 

[BVS]

Right, ok, funny. But given the US cops have just killed a citizen yet again ( Man dies after being Tasered in subway by L.A. deputy - On Deadline - USATODAY.com : all in a day's work for the 'protect and serve' brigade), perhaps it's about time the libertarian argument was given a hearing, don't you think?

So wait, just so I understand your logic here...

You see a few law enforcers as getting out of hand, so the actual laws themselves should be written differently?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[financeguy]

Since all we have to go is the published report, it's clear to even remedial readers that his life wasn't "terminated" for not answering a question.

He allegedly repeatedly attacked a Sheriff's deputy, most of us would have gotten the message after 1 tasering that maybe it's not a good idea to keep attacking the man in uniform with the weapon.

Was excess forced used ? Maybe, maybe not. Until witness step forward and the inevitable cell phone video surfaces we'll never know.

What IS clear though is that "given the US cops have just killed a citizen yet again" is hardly a statement free from bias and as long as that is the approach you take in light of the available information, then you are definitely wasting your time with me.

So wait, just so I understand your logic here...

You see a few law enforcers as getting out of hand, so the actual laws themselves should be written differently?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

I think what neither of you two guys grasp is that it these kinds of events are, though not completely unheard of, very unusual in Europe and when they do happen, most people are disgusted and full independent investigations are conducted, e.g.:


Barr Tribunal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3071557/Jean


The extent to which the US citizenry seemingly permits these kinds of abuses is quite disturbing and incomprehensible to outsiders. In other few days, there'll probably be another such incident, by which time this one will have been forgotten about. And so on.

 

[toscano]

I think what neither of you two guys grasp is that it these kinds of events are, though not completely unheard of, very unusual in Europe and when they do happen, most people are disgusted and full investigations are conducted, e.g.:


Barr Tribunal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3071557/Jean


The extent to which the US citizenry seemingly permits these kinds of abuses is quite disturbing and incomprehensible to outsiders. In other few days, there'll probably be another such incident, by which time this one will have been forgotten about. And so on.

Yeah, like they're NOT investigated here.

Rodney King anyone ?

Really, you appear to know very little about what happens in the US

 

[financeguy]

Yeah, like they're NOT investigated here.

In the US, such investigations are usually pre-determined to favour the cops. The fact that incidents such as this keep happening in spite of investigations, should trouble you as a US citizen, but it seemingly doesn't. That's probably why you come across to me like a statist KoolAid drinker.

 

[toscano]

In the US, such investigations are usually pre-determined to favour the cops.

Speculation and assumption

The fact that incidents such as this keep happening in spite of investigations, should trouble you as a US citizen,

That's one hell of a glass house you live in there !

And I'm not a US citizen

So many assumptions, so few facts.....

 

[financeguy]

Speculation and assumption

That's one hell of a glass house you live in there !

And I'm not a US citizen

So many assumptions, so few facts.....

Well, ok, here are some facts:

Stats on police killings in the US:

About 9,500 people nationally were killed by police during the years 1980 to 2005–an average of nearly one fatal shooting per day.

Killed by the Cops By Jeff Kelly Lowenstein


Stats on police killings in the UK:

According to an October 2005 article in The Independent, in the preceding 12 years, 30 people had been shot dead by police,

Police use of firearms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, adjusted for population, the number of people killed by police per annum in the US is approximately THIRTY TIMES HIGHER than in the UK.

Granted, police in the US often operate in a more dangerous environment, which I think is part of the problem.

 

[toscano]

Well, ok, here are some facts:



Killed by the Cops By Jeff Kelly Lowenstein




Police use of firearms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words, adjusted for population, the number of people killed by police per annum in the US is approximately THIRTY TIMES HIGHER than in the UK.

Hardly surprising given the easy accessibility of firearms to the general population over here.

Got any data on Police killed by citizens ? I'd guess it's >30X higher than the rate in the UK

 

[BVS]

financeguy, you're still not showing the link between police abuse and why drinking and driving laws should be looked at in a more libertarian view...

 

[financeguy]

financeguy, you're still not showing the link between police abuse and why drinking and driving laws should be looked at in a more libertarian view...

When did I say there was such a link?

I am merely arguing against the dangers of excess state powers.

 

[financeguy]

Hardly surprising given the easy accessibility of firearms to the general population over here.

Very probably, that is a factor.

Got any data on Police killed by citizens ? I'd guess it's >30X higher than the rate in the UK

Seemingly not. It's only around four times higher.


Number of police killed, assaulted on duty dips in '05 - USATODAY.com

BBC NEWS | UK | Killed in the line of duty

The number of citizens killed by US police is on average seven times higher per annum than the number of US police murdered in the course of duty.

By contrast, in the UK the number of police murdered while on duty is approximately the same, on average, per annum, as the number of citizens killed by police.

Note, all such deaths, whether police murdered by criminals, or citizens killed by police, are to be regretted by all right-thinking citizens, but the stats, at this point, seem to back up my thesis.

 

[BVS]

When did I say there was such a link?

I am merely arguing against the dangers of excess state powers.

Then what does this mean?

Right, ok, funny. But given the US cops have just killed a citizen yet again ..., perhaps it's about time the libertarian argument was given a hearing, don't you think?

 

[UberBeaver]

I think what neither of you two guys grasp is that it these kinds of events are, though not completely unheard of, very unusual in Europe and when they do happen, most people are disgusted and full independent investigations are conducted, e.g.:

America has a much higher Asshole Per Capita than any European country. I think 9 out of 10 times you'll find the person on the receiving end of an excessive treatment probably could have avoided the situation by doing as he/she was asked - granted, not always, and granted, there are cops that go way too far - but whether we want to accept it or not, the vast majority of police just want to do their job and go home after work.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

never thought i'd see the day where someone is defending drunk driving in order to get a rise out of people on FYM.

but i guess it's here.

There are no limits, you can take that to the bank

 

[HyperU2]

I'm against them in person, the FYM rise is just a bonus.

 

[anitram]

Very, very interesting if you're a legal geek, and I think even if you're not...

CTV.ca | Quebec drunk driver could be imprisoned 20 years

 

[yolland]

^ Not a sympathetic defendant, that's for sure.

 

[HyperU2]

If you kill someone, sober or drunk, I'm fine with you going away for 20 yrs.

 

[AliEnvy]

Walsh has 114 criminal convictions on his record, including 19 drinking and driving offences.

Why the fuck wasn't he already off the streets.

 

[anitram]

Why the fuck wasn't he already off the streets.

Because the "tyrannical" drunk driving laws are incredibly lax.

But let's not let that get in the way of a good FYM rant.

 

[HyperU2]

Why the fuck wasn't he already off the streets.

We had two recent DUI crashes around here from folks who didn't have a license. I don't know how they manage to get back behind the wheel. I guess criminals don't care about laws.