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Old 03-21-2010, 03:26 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by MadelynIris View Post
I dunno. Conservative posters that can take the heat? An expansion of scope/subject material? A new U2 album? An election? A war?
I think there is some truth to all of this.

Interference as a whole feels somewhat dead these days, with the exception of a few areas, so a new album or the start of the tour may spark things up.

An election definately would but those usually bring in drive by posters that never return again once the election is over.

I think if we're all honest here we know this place is pretty heavy sided, I think that's just natural given what band this is, so it takes a little bit of a stronger person to be the minority. You have to be prepared to bring a little more information to the table, a little more stats, a little more logic when you are the minority voice, and you have to have slightly thicker skin. Just the nature of such debate.
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Old 03-21-2010, 03:29 PM   #17
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People who post things deliberately trying to get a rise out of other posters aren't helping things.

Maybe they could stop that, and maybe people could stop constantly giving them the satisfaction of rising to the bait.
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Old 03-21-2010, 03:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post
People turn mean in here really fast, whereas anywhere outside FYM, they can be really cool people (some are still assholes though ). ¢
Your entire post hit the nail on the head, but this line stood out to me!!

Not the least of the reasons why is it describes me, too. When I see something I think is b.s. or outrageous or a lie, etc I have a tendency to get upset and respond aggressively out of frustration. Then they reply, and the familiar bickering contest ensues. I have said some pretty nasty things I am not proud of in the least bit, especially considering the fact that I am the furthest thing from argumentative in real life. In fact, if someone disagrees with me on politics in person, I will often make a couple good natured points and then quickly say "you'll agree with me that neither party really represents the people or the best interests of the country right now." Always works to end an argument.

As psychotic/crazy/in denial it sounds of me, I ALWAYS regret venturing into FYM, never mind getting in arguments. I have had about 3 spurts of posting in FYM since I joined a little over 2 years ago, the most recent of which just ended. I always post in FYM in spurts, I am not a card carrying member or a coffee counter regular so to speak. It always tends to be when U2 related news is slow.

Here is my very broad, general take on FYM for what it is worth:

I agree with others, if threads were structured more to provoke discussion on issues and their merits and less on arguments over who is right, that would be a plus. However, as plenty have pointed out, give it 2 or 3 pages tops and these threads get derailed into the usual arguments. Doesn't have to be relevant, someone pushing their agenda will find a way to bring it up.

There are some great posters on here, from all ends of the spectrum, who genuinely care about and know the issues and want to discuss them on their merits. They are unfortunately the exception in most discussions. I think generally, keeping in mind that generalizations are what they are of course, the problem with substance is this:

Conservatives will not even discuss the issues on their merits. They have to continually repeat flat out lies about Obama being a socialist or wanting a government takeover of health care or "coddling terrorists" etc. One poster even continues to insist that Iraq posed a threat to the US even after Bush has admitted they didn't and all objective evidence says they didn't. The same poster still tries to say Bush did better on the debt situation than Clinton. Neither are true. A reasonable conservative not taught by Beck and Limbaugh would argue why they thought Bush was misled or why they thought his economic policies were given undue blame, etc. These people continue to think they can have their own set of facts.

This is the problem with conservatives, they twist an issue into a complete lie and repeat it, and they think that is how to respond to facts. I have not seen one post from the opposition to Obama over an actual issue of substance, just accusations of socialism and government takeover and slapping terrorists on the wrist. Not one discussion on the merits of actual provisions of the health care bill, etc. I am more than willing to have that discussion, it is when nonsense talking points keep getting repeated that I flip out.

Liberals will often post something and then instead of calling out those who disagree with them on the facts, they start yelling "racist" or "sexist" or "homophobe" and just roll their eyes. They will often think that laughing or rolling their eyes or not taking the accusations of conservatives seriously will make them go away, but really, all it does is perpuate the perception that liberals are programmed by MSNBC talking heads and blogs. If you don't respond to socialism accusations, then the other side will think that you agree- Obama is a socialist, and that it is ok.

In short, liberals often think that their majority on FYM allows them to gain support for their arguments based on perceptions about Bush/Cheney or Republicans. They will often point out how Bush was a joke, a liar, etc but will not tell us why, factually.

Keep in mind, I am just generalizing, I realize that thousands of people post here, but the people who argue all the time are really ultimately 2 people:

1.)Conservative- The Limbaugh, lie and repeat, lie and repeat, repeat again and when faced with facts, change the subject entirely into something about the "liberals."

2.)Liberal-The "I insist on 100% agreement with Rachel Maddow or party interest groups on everything" crowd. There was an entire thread dedicated to how horrible it was for Obama to let Rick Warren give the invocation at the inaguration. I have also been in numerous discussions with liberals who will not see anything at all organized labor does as harmful, particularly with respect to teachers' unions. These people think that because more on here generally agree with them, that they can implement some kind of ideological or interest group check list for other posters who lean that way. These are the same people that are heavy on accusations about the other side, heavy on use of negative perceptions about the other side and light on facts.

The Democratic Party is a big place, but the posters here seem to think that those marching in the gay pride parade(who I have no problem with, btw) or protesting the war or holding the union sign are the only ones you need to appeal to. Some guy that does not belong to the ACLU or donate to the Sierra club is out there, he is not a tea bagger either, does not watch MSNBC or Fox, but HE VOTES. He and his wife were who put Obama in office, the base is not enough for either party.

Hell, I criticized Hillary and Obama in the primaries and someone came back at me telling me that how dare I think there is no difference between the parties and that I would be sorry if I voted Republican. Of course, this person had no idea that the 1st thing I did on my 18th birthday was register to vote as a Democrat, and I have never missed an election and was well aware of that person's point. It was just that I liked Biden and Richardson best, which was a CARDINAL SIN in FYM.

So one side's talking points feeds the other side's and we go round and round with very little substantive discussion, which by the way, is frowned upon on FYM. I have been accused of being a rambling incoherent fool for actually addressing every baseless accusation leveled at my arguments with facts.

Safe to say, I have no idea why I have my phases of wasting my time here. I guess I am now used to spending too much time on the blue crack from U2 discussions. So when U2 news gets slow, I still need to spend too much time here so I go to FYM.

It is a habit that I have kicked for the time being. I can still read all the news I want, analyze it myself, and form my opinions. I really do not need a bunch of strangers who usually have no interest in actually discussing issues to validate my viewpoints on a message board.

Enough goes on in life that is far more important than arguing in circles on message boards. My life or anyone else's life will not be any different tomorrow because something was posted or not posted in FYM. No one loses their job based on what happens in FYM, no one dies of cancer, no one gets killed in a car accident, no one's parent died, no natural disaster happened, etc. In the grand scheme of things, it is just not that important. If FYM is truly dead, then I will be very happy to continue discussing U2 and U2 only on here! They are at least relevant to things in my life, in addition to being people who bring others together, bridge divides and do good in the world.

And I will read this post every time in the future that I consider coming back in here!
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Old 03-21-2010, 03:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
People who post things deliberately trying to get a rise out of other posters aren't helping things.

Maybe they could stop that, and maybe people could stop constantly giving them the satisfaction of rising to the bait.
But that would eliminate 75% of the posts in here.



Though in all seriousness, you've nailed the main problem as far as I'm concerned. There's very little actual discussion here, but a whole lot of talking at people - and God forbid anyone let something objectionable/questionable/inaccurate get posted without a vehement rebuttal. I doubt these arguments would be so antagonistic if we were having them in person. Though it's much easier to cut someone off or cut someone down when we don't have to deal with them in person.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:48 PM   #20
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Yes, it is dead for me. It was fun while it lasted though.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:55 PM   #21
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Time for a thread on euthanasia?
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:12 PM   #22
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U2387, I loved your post.

Just about everything you said was true about the state of FYM now, in terms of politics.

It basically sums up how I feel about discussing religion, one of my most favorite subjects here. Until recently, FYM was a good place to talk about anything in terms of religion and spirituality. Some things will get heated, but overall I felt the discussions were cordial.

However, in the past year, it is has been almost dangerous to post a religion themed thread. First you got the religious fanatics who tear their hair out when someone does not share the same views as they do. Secondly, you have some atheists who brutally attack those who do not share the same views as they do. As Cori mentioned, there are some who deliberately post just to get a rise out of people, and I feel it is those who post religion-themed posts - the ones on both sides of the issue.

I feel FYM is a great place to learn, broaden your mind and share experiences. But when it becomes a battlefield, it is no longer fun. That is why I am feeling FYM has lost its luster lately.

ETA: just a note: if we have a thread on whether Lady Gaga is part of the Illuminati movement, then you know FYM has lost its meaning.
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Old 03-21-2010, 05:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Knuckle View Post
Time for a thread on euthanasia?
Seriously though, even though I don't post very frequently, I drop in to read what's going on just about every day. I think this place is great. It's an important outlet. For me, the best part is actually being able to finish a thought, sometimes on complicated subjects, without being interrupted. I know how that makes me sound. But it is disappointing trying to have this level of conversation out there in the "real world" of daily life. Hardly anyone listens to each other any more. Everyone is too busy thinking about the next thing they are going to say to listen to the person who is actually speaking. Here, at least, everyone gets to finish what they want to say (but with no guarentee that the point will get across). So, for my part, thanks to all of you.
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Knuckle View Post
Seriously though, even though I don't post very frequently, I drop in to read what's going on just about every day. I think this place is great. It's an important outlet.
I agree. Plenty of smart people post here.
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:24 PM   #25
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One poster even continues to insist that Iraq posed a threat to the US even after Bush has admitted they didn't and all objective evidence says they didn't.
Well, that poster is actually correct and has plenty of evidence to back up his position on the issue. Former Secretary of State James Baker, Colin Powell, Clintons national security expert on Iraq Kenneth Pollack, the democratic leaning anylyst Michael O'Halon, Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton all agree with the posters position that Saddam posed a threat to the US and needed to be removed. All of these leaders listed are actually moderates or democrats and all to this day still support the removal of Saddam based on the objective facts.

Yes, the poster is apart of a small minority in FYM that takes this position, but given that there is substantial factual evidence to support that position and that people like James Baker, Colin Powell, Kenneth Pollack, Michael O'Halon, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton also agree with that position, there is no basis for claiming that the position has no merit or is based on lies. The latest gallup poll on the issue shows that 40% of the country still thinks that removing Saddam was a necessity.

You certainly don't have to agree with the position or opinion, but there is no reason to specifically lable or verbly attack a forum member because they support that position or opinion. Doing so does nothing to strengthen or support your own opinion on the issue. It adds nothing to the thread and brings it down.



Quote:
The same poster still tries to say Bush did better on the debt situation than Clinton.
Its a fact that the average amount of debt as a percentage of GDP during the Clinton years was higher than the Bush years.

Quote:
A reasonable conservative not taught by Beck and Limbaugh would argue why they thought Bush was misled or why they thought his economic policies were given undue blame, etc. These people continue to think they can have their own set of facts.
But really the heart of the problem is the lack of respect for forum members. Its not right to lable or make things up about another poster just because you disagree with their opinion on the issue.

Having an opinion, whatever it is, on Iraq, Afghanistan, the debt etc. is not the problem here. Discussing the ISSUE and giving your opinion on it is what FREE YOUR MIND was formed for.

Discussing a forum member or several forum members INSTEAD of discussing the issue is where many of the problems start. One should stick to the issue since that is the topic. Once you start discussing and giving uninformed opinions about other forum members, you ruin the discussion, the thread, and certainly do not strengthen any points you attempted to make that actually had anything to do with the issue.
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:30 PM   #26
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I'm all out argued. I'm just not interested in discussing politics any more. The world is old enough and big enough to look after itself.
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:32 PM   #27
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But really the heart of the problem is the lack of respect for forum members. Its not right to lable or make things up about another poster just because you disagree with their opinion on the issue.

Having an opinion, whatever it is, on Iraq, Afghanistan, the debt etc. is not the problem here. Discussing the ISSUE and giving your opinion on it is what FREE YOUR MIND was formed for.

Discussing a forum member or several forum members INSTEAD of discussing the issue is where many of the problems start. One should stick to the issue since that is the topic. Once you start discussing and giving uninformed opinions about other forum members, you ruin the discussion, the thread, and certainly do not strengthen any points you attempted to make that actually had anything to do with the issue.
That's a fair point in as far as it goes but you could also try and address why it is your posting style, as opposed to your opinions, seems to rile up quite a few posters here.
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:44 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
U2387, I loved your post.

Just about everything you said was true about the state of FYM now, in terms of politics.

It basically sums up how I feel about discussing religion, one of my most favorite subjects here. Until recently, FYM was a good place to talk about anything in terms of religion and spirituality. Some things will get heated, but overall I felt the discussions were cordial.

However, in the past year, it is has been almost dangerous to post a religion themed thread. First you got the religious fanatics who tear their hair out when someone does not share the same views as they do. Secondly, you have some atheists who brutally attack those who do not share the same views as they do. As Cori mentioned, there are some who deliberately post just to get a rise out of people, and I feel it is those who post religion-themed posts - the ones on both sides of the issue.

I feel FYM is a great place to learn, broaden your mind and share experiences. But when it becomes a battlefield, it is no longer fun. That is why I am feeling FYM has lost its luster lately.

ETA: just a note: if we have a thread on whether Lady Gaga is part of the Illuminati movement, then you know FYM has lost its meaning.
Pearl- Thank you very much, I appreciate it! You have a lot more FYM courage than me I have always been afraid to touch religion in here, save for speaking of it in broad, general terms and even then, only occasionally and carefully!
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:56 PM   #29
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I find some of the discussion in this thread very ironic indeed
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Old 03-21-2010, 06:57 PM   #30
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What are we going to do now it's all been said,
No new ideas in the house and every book has been read.

Well, that, and the forum in general is slower these days, and it's being reflected in FYM.
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