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Old 01-18-2010, 07:30 PM   #16
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Point #1, if taken alone, I'm willing to set aside as a game of semiotics.

Point #2 is generally offensive to minorities, in general, as if, because they "do not hold sway" are irrelevant. Sure, tell that to racial minorities who will likely always be a minority in the West, but won't be given opportunity to wake up and become a "late-in-life white person."

And Point #3 is the dead ringer for self-loathing by citing a religious-based quotation making reference to homosexuality as "loathsome to God" and making yet another mention of "abnormality"--thus connection his apparent preoccupation with normality and aberration in his previous points.

And is it not bad enough that not only does he discover his bisexuality, but then has to do it by painting broadly offensive strokes about those who are gay?

Really, who the fuck is Patrick Muirhead, and why should I care about what he says over what decades of medical and psychiatric research says that show that gay families can be as happy and productive as their heterosexual counterparts? He may be of the generation that thinks of homosexuality as merely "fucking in a rest area batoo much of the language he chose to use is right from their playbook.
Some of it is provocative stuff for sure, but he is from the background and milieu of a particular part of gay London, and he wouldn't be the first to criticise the social standards of this set and I still don't truly see how it makes him a self hater. Would a true self-hater write an article in a newspaper talking of their numerous gay encounters without apology or remorse?

It's interesting to note in passing that - and granted, this is a bit of a generalisation - that European gay rights organisations seem, at least to me:

(1) in general, to adopt a less confrontational approach than their US counterparts
(2) in general, thus far at least, to have been more successful in actually achieving the rights they are looking for.

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And is it not bad enough that not only does he discover his bisexuality
Hmmm.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:31 PM   #17
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It's interesting to note in passing that - and granted, this is a bit of a generalisation - that European gay rights organisations seem, at least to me:

(1) in general, to adopt a less confrontational approach than their US counterparts
(2) in general, thus far at least, to have been more successful in actually achieving the rights they are looking for.
I'm not sure whether your generalization is accurate as I haven't spent appreciable time in Europe in recent years. But let's say that for the sake of argument it is. You also then have to acknowledge that the anti-gay equality rights groups in the US are far more confrontational and far more politically connected. Ultimately every individual and every group is a product of its society. And the gays and lesbians in western Europe simply don't live in Alaska or Alabama. Much the same way as you'd see a different picture if you looked at the former Soviet bloc countries and examined gay rights there (hint: they're not exactly liberal).
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:37 PM   #18
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Some of it is provocative stuff for sure, but he is from the background and milieu of a particular part of gay London, and he wouldn't be the first to criticise the social standards of this set and I still don't truly see how it makes him a self hater. Would a true self-hater write an article in a newspaper talking of their numerous gay encounters without apology or remorse?
If he is looking to further an agenda, why would we put it past him?

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It's interesting to note in passing that - and granted, this is a bit of a generalisation - that European gay rights organisations seem, at least to me:

(1) in general, to adopt a less confrontational approach than their US counterparts
(2) in general, thus far at least, to have been more successful in actually achieving the rights they are looking for.
I read a different observation--right or wrong--that chalked up Europe's acceptance of homosexuals to the realization that this minority was "better" than the Muslim minorities that they detest more. Hence, not only were homosexuals "more like us," they also have the side benefit of irritating observant Muslims.

I make that note only to say that correlation does not imply causation. It's quite possible that they could be more confrontational and equally successful. On the other hand, who needs to be confrontational when David Cameron has basically bent over backward to be gay friendly, in contrast to the GOP leadership, which has exploited homophobia to win votes instead? If our political leaders were more reasonable--not to mention if U.S. politics were less combattative on all fronts--then there would certainly be less need for confrontation.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:40 PM   #19
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Hmmm.
This:

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Does this mean that I no longer like men? No, of course not, and I won’t pretend. But in the streets and avenues of this country there must be many husbands whose interests are divided but whose choices are determined not by sexuality but emotionality.
In fact, I'd almost say that the latter line about "emotionality" makes me think that maybe my line about "bisexuality" was premature; that he's still gay and just doesn't think it possible to have a "normal" relationship with someone of the same-sex. That would make it even more fucked up.
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Old 01-18-2010, 08:56 PM   #20
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His views on gay marriages are controversial in today's society (and bear in mind, we are talking about a UK newspaper here, not a US one). I fail to see, however, that it constitutes gay bashing or even self-hatred. Sorry, but I just find that approach judgemental and ultimately a double standard.


we have, firstly, the tired imagery of shrieking nancy-pants party boys:
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not always to accessorise an outfit.
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At these tidings, my sceptical buddies will splutter, “You what?! Miss Patsy, trouser-chaser extraordinaire, has decided she’s now dancing at the other end of the ballroom? Pur-leeeeeeeze!”
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But there is no pink meteor shower for this announcement; no glittered cabaret or niche community willing to clutch me to its bosom and claim me as a sister.
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rue, I never liked football or fighting and I do make a beautifully light Victoria sponge when the need arises. But I shamble like a bloke, I burp and fart without shame and I’ve never really got Barbra Streisand.


and then there's the straight up self-loathing bashing:

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Civil partnerships really are little more than theatrical shams involving men making a point in matching wedding cravats, of embarrassed grandparents and monstrously camp multi-tier cakes.


and, thus, the author comes off just like the bitter old queen he claims to despise, and who wants to go home with the working class guy with the great hands from the barbershop.

in many ways, this article is a good case-in-point of the damage of a society that teaches gay people that they are ridiculous and worthless, that they have nothing to offer society and we'd all be better off without them. this is the message of the "traditional marriage" crowd, the people who have never expressed a modicum of concern towards the actual gay people in their midst (like the anti-abortion folks who are far more concerned with sluts keeping their legs shut than with the actual fetus itself).

it all comes across as rather desperate.

but i don't know the guy. so who am i to judge as harshly as he does?
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:00 PM   #21
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he's still gay and just doesn't think it possible to have a "normal" relationship with someone of the same-sex.


it's a bingo.

perhaps an examination of his own lifestyle, rather than "the lifestyle," might lead him to a happier place.
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:33 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
we have, firstly, the tired imagery of shrieking nancy-pants party boys:

Quote:
not always to accessorise an outfit.

Quote:
At these tidings, my sceptical buddies will splutter, “You what?! Miss Patsy, trouser-chaser extraordinaire, has decided she’s now dancing at the other end of the ballroom? Pur-leeeeeeeze!”

Quote:
But there is no pink meteor shower for this announcement; no glittered cabaret or niche community willing to clutch me to its bosom and claim me as a sister.

Quote:
rue, I never liked football or fighting and I do make a beautifully light Victoria sponge when the need arises. But I shamble like a bloke, I burp and fart without shame and I’ve never really got Barbra Streisand.
I read it as humour. There's a thing they have in England, gays are allowed to laugh at themselves - or, more accurately, at stereotypes of themselves - without being accused of being self-haters. There's a long, long tradition of this in things like Carry On films and the like.

Rupert Everett says similar stuff all the time, are you offended by him too?

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a judge as harshly as he does?

What comes across judgemental to me is comments that seem to imply being bi is a bad thing.

And actually, I wonder if that's what the self-hating accusations are really about, when it comes down to it - that, and assuming that the dynamic of sexual politics as played out in the particularly confrontational manner that it is in the US is exactly the same everywhere else. But it just ain't so.
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:39 PM   #23
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I'm not sure whether your generalization is accurate as I haven't spent appreciable time in Europe in recent years. But let's say that for the sake of argument it is. You also then have to acknowledge that the anti-gay equality rights groups in the US are far more confrontational and far more politically connected. Ultimately every individual and every group is a product of its society. And the gays and lesbians in western Europe simply don't live in Alaska or Alabama. Much the same way as you'd see a different picture if you looked at the former Soviet bloc countries and examined gay rights there (hint: they're not exactly liberal).


Well, I take your point. I wouldn't include eastern Europe in what I said. Countries like Poland are still very homophobic. There were reports of Polish immigrants beating up patrons of gay bars in Dublin recently.
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Old 01-18-2010, 09:41 PM   #24
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What comes across judgemental to me is comments that seem to imply being bi is a bad thing.
I know that this is a concept that is banded about a lot--that homosexuals hate bisexuals--but I really don't know anyone like this. I know some genuine bisexuals, and I wouldn't dismiss their feelings anymore than I'd want them to dismiss my own.

But, you see, there's a large difference between my bisexual friends and Mr. Muirhead, who sees his sexual awakening as an opportunity to stereotype, bash and ridicule those who were once just like him. And, frankly, I don't have patience for rudeness, let alone idiocy.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:13 PM   #25
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I read it as humour. There's a thing they have in England, gays are allowed to laugh at themselves - or, more accurately, at stereotypes of themselves - without being accused of being self-haters. There's a long, long tradition of this in things like Carry On films and the like.

does an article like this strike you as the place for such humor? particularly by someone who IS NOT GAY -- as he goes to great lengths to tell us.



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What comes across judgemental to me is comments that seem to imply being bi is a bad thing.

where did i say this?



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And actually, I wonder if that's what the self-hating accusations are really about, when it comes down to it - that, and assuming that the dynamic of sexual politics as played out in the particularly confrontational manner that it is in the US is exactly the same everywhere else. But it just ain't so.

judging by the comments on the website, it was hardly US readers only who came up with the "self-loathing" diagnosis.

i absolutely understand that politics are much more confrontational in the US, but i don't think this is a particularly good example of a british way of dealing with difficult issues.
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