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Old 02-24-2012, 08:21 PM   #16
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like, i'm quite sure Jesus would understand if he could pretend to repent.
From the perspective of a pastor whose religion is centered on a man who didn't take the easy way out when being executed for heresy (re: give into the mocking and literally call angels down to save him), this isn't an option. And I can't necessarily agree that Jesus would understand him recanting either, beyond the idea that Jesus was an understanding guy around us human folk. He was about some things, but he also said this:

"...whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

So, no, not really an option in his situation. Basically I'm saying what BEAL said, minus the condescending tone that briefly made me want to punch him through the monitor. All them delusionations and shit are getting me riled up.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:25 PM   #17
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I don't think (well, actually, I know) the responses here would be the same if this were, say, an atheist being persecuted.
I personally would suggest the same thing to an atheist that I'm suggesting to the pastor. Just tell them what they want to hear, and then once I was free, I'd get the hell out of that area.

And again, this is what I would do if I were in his shoes. He's entitled to make his own choice, however, of course.

Interesting to know his wife did the same thing-okay, so she'd be supportive of his decision to stick up for himself. I just look at those kids, though, and it'd be really hard for me to not want to do everything possible, include lying about something that means a lot to me, to still be with them. The kids are the thing that just make me pause the most in this story. Like I said, though, their willingness to be defiant in the face of batshit crazy extremism is kinda admirable.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:15 PM   #18
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Sophie Scholl and her friends were willing to give their lives for what they believe. Would it not have been okay if she'd been married with kids?

To quote from the anniversary thread: "But their willingness to risk everything for doing what they felt was right, that is quite amazing. "

Or is it only admirable if I understand what you believe in. If my opinion is that your beliefs are a crock then that makes you an immoral fool.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:32 PM   #19
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A pastor faces execution for his faith, and the sentiment I'm reading here is that it's the pastor at fault? Wow.
Rule #523 of FYM: You have to understand when deep is just being deep. (er .... being himself.)
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:30 PM   #20
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Sophie Scholl and her friends were willing to give their lives for what they believe. Would it not have been okay if she'd been married with kids?

To quote from the anniversary thread: "But their willingness to risk everything for doing what they felt was right, that is quite amazing. "

Or is it only admirable if I understand what you believe in. If my opinion is that your beliefs are a crock then that makes you an immoral fool.
I thought of that thread, too. And you're right. It would be wrong for me to okay it in one instance and frown upon it in another. Especially since those students were fairly young-people would likely have thought them crazy, too, for risking their lives at such a young age.

And now that I think even more about it it sort of embarrasses me to think I wouldn't be brave enough to stand up for myself in such crazy circumstances. That makes me realize something about myself that I don't really like knowing.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:31 PM   #21
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Different OP, different responses. For the people getting really riled up (lemelllllllll) I would take that into consideration.
I just find it difficult to sympathize with a religion that was basically doing the exact same thing 500 years ago and is reaping all the rewards today. Especially considering Islam is roughly as old now as Christianity was then.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:37 PM   #22
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"...whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."
You know I like you, lemel, so take this with a grain of salt, but when trying to distinguish between what quotes from Jesus might be true and what quotes may have been attributed to him after the fact, it's worth considering what the motivation behind the quote may be. When I read something like this, it's clear to me that it was most likely included to keep numbers up. It doesn't seem very Christ-like
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:56 PM   #23
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And then there's also this, which I strongly suggest you take into consideration

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Old 02-24-2012, 11:00 PM   #24
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Different OP, different responses. For the people getting really riled up (lemelllllllll) I would take that into consideration.
I just find it difficult to sympathize with a religion that was basically doing the exact same thing 500 years ago and is reaping all the rewards today. Especially considering Islam is roughly as old now as Christianity was then.
You can't blame Christians for things done by the Catholic church. They were the ones killing people who didn't repent. The Bible was still only in Latin, so the non-elites didn't have a clue about what Christ really taught.

It's easy to say that someone should disown their faith to save their life if you don't believe in anything yourself. Hate was never stopped by people giving up on their beliefs.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:10 PM   #25
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You can't blame Christians for things done by the Catholic church. They were the ones killing people who didn't repent. The Bible was still only in Latin, so the non-elites didn't have a clue about what Christ really taught.

It's easy to say that someone should disown their faith to save their life if you don't believe in anything yourself. Hate was never stopped by people giving up on their beliefs.
That just reinforces JT's point - you have probably close to a billion Muslims around the world who memorize the salahs in Arabic and are able to read the Arabic Quran but don't actually speak or understand the language.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:51 PM   #26
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You know I like you, lemel, so take this with a grain of salt, but when trying to distinguish between what quotes from Jesus might be true and what quotes may have been attributed to him after the fact, it's worth considering what the motivation behind the quote may be. When I read something like this, it's clear to me that it was most likely included to keep numbers up. It doesn't seem very Christ-like
I think most scholars agree that Mark is the oldest and John is the newest and has less harmony with the others. That quote, according to Saint Google (because I didn't recognize it), is from Matthew, which - along with Luke - could be considered the 2nd oldest.

Although any time we start opining about the Bible, I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:05 AM   #27
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I think most scholars agree that Mark is the oldest and John is the newest and has less harmony with the others. That quote, according to Saint Google (because I didn't recognize it), is from Matthew, which - along with Luke - could be considered the 2nd oldest.

Although any time we start opining about the Bible, I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Correct. I suppose Matthew could have some unfortunate additions and deviations, as the book is based on Mark but doesn't match it entirely. I find the topic fascinating. Luke, funny enough, has an entirely different meal order for the Last Supper that matches Jewish Passover, in stark contrast to the other three Gospels. Re: what Jive said about motivation, this distinction was purported to be a political choice.

Sorry, this took the thread a bit off topic.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:33 AM   #28
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Correct. I suppose Matthew could have some unfortunate additions and deviations, as the book is based on Mark but doesn't match it entirely. I find the topic fascinating. Luke, funny enough, has an entirely different meal order for the Last Supper that matches Jewish Passover, in stark contrast to the other three Gospels. Re: what Jive said about motivation, this distinction was purported to be a political choice.
What about Silky Steve and Magnum Johnson?
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Old 02-25-2012, 01:10 AM   #29
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Straight Outta Taco Bell
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:04 AM   #30
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Sophie Scholl and her friends were willing to give their lives for what they believe. Would it not have been okay if she'd been married with kids?

To quote from the anniversary thread: "But their willingness to risk everything for doing what they felt was right, that is quite amazing. "

Or is it only admirable if I understand what you believe in. If my opinion is that your beliefs are a crock then that makes you an immoral fool.
That was me.

I think this pastor also needs to decide for himself what he thinks is the right thing to do. But since he has kids, I think this adds another layer to the story.
I wouldn't judge him if he gave his life for his belief, though I'd most probably be different about it if I were in his shoes.

I guess another difference is, while Sophie and Hans Scholl, along with their friends, saw that a senseless mass-killing was going on and they saw it as their duty to do everything to stop it, this pastor's motivation is, in the view of most, less great. But then again, just consider how many Irish Catholics went through basically the same for centuries, especially during the Penal laws era. And to this day, people all over the world give up everything for their faith. He is not the only one. I don't think we should get on the high road and say, "This is what you have to do!"
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