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Old 11-14-2008, 02:31 PM   #16
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I thought I heard 1 in 10 people work in the auto industry. I agree that there has to be some preconditions, and as Toscano said, there are so many model cars out there - who the hell is buying (bought) them? My cars have always been Japanese (Toyota, Honda), and I would never buy a GM/Ford....
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Old 11-14-2008, 02:33 PM   #17
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I think letting them fail would be too disasterous. And why should a bunch of rich bankers get a bail out but not working class auto people (or at least that's how it will look)? But I hope they can figure out how to tie the bailout to innovation and greener standards.
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Old 11-14-2008, 02:53 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by toscano View Post
The more pressing issue is that they can't make reliable cars, they have zero ability to read where a market will go, they have too many models and too many factories.

Once they fix all that, then they need to look at their Production costs, which will include the union-related spend.
The stock prices of Honda and Toyota are down 50% off their yearly highs, so the entire industry is taking a beating (regardless of reliability). Industrywide, there is too much supply and capacity for the flat to declining demand. Mergers and industry downsizing are required, as we have seen in the banking sector and airlines. And the US car companies have an average wage of something like $73 an hour (including benefits) - a lot higher than Toyota.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:00 PM   #19
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I think letting them fail would be too disasterous. And why should a bunch of rich bankers get a bail out but not working class auto people (or at least that's how it will look)? But I hope they can figure out how to tie the bailout to innovation and greener standards.
Where do you draw the line on who gets a bailout ??
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:01 PM   #20
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The stock prices of Honda and Toyota are down 50% off their yearly highs, so the entire industry is taking a beating (regardless of reliability).
Yes, but it's one thing to have your stock be down, quite another to be bleeding billions of dollars.....
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:23 PM   #21
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The money has to be given them in a structured way, with the government dictating how the money is spent. Don't force them, essentially go into a contract. Say, "Hey, we'll bail you out, but you gotta spend the money this way." With that way being a move towards energy efficient cars.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:29 PM   #22
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The money has to be given them in a structured way, with the government dictating how the money is spent. Don't force them, essentially go into a contract. Say, "Hey, we'll bail you out, but you gotta spend the money this way." With that way being a move towards energy efficient cars.


I think, as dire as the situation is right now for the automotive industry, that this is an excellent opportunity to fulfill one of Obama's major campaign promises, and that is to end America's dependence on foreign oil. They can make more energy efficient cars and invest in alternative sources of fuel. This is a tremendous opportunity.
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:57 PM   #23
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The money has to be given them in a structured way, with the government dictating how the money is spent. Don't force them, essentially go into a contract. Say, "Hey, we'll bail you out, but you gotta spend the money this way." With that way being a move towards energy efficient cars.
Ummm, the money is so they can, amongst other things,meet payroll !

New cars are designed about 3 years before they actually hit the showroom floor, in the meantime they need to sell shit and pay their workers !
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:46 PM   #24
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If the PBGC already insures their pensions, that's fine with me if they go belly up.
Maybe their failures will bring about an overhaul of the American auto industry.

If it is deemed to be in the national interest to bail them out, we should bail them out.
And have them donate 25% (whatever) of their future profit over the next X# of years to paying back the debt with interest.

I am no expert on the economics of the situation but I can't say that I trust our leaders to make the best decision in the interest of the American people, rather they will make the best decision in the interest of the interests of those who helped them win their re-elections.

I would prefer that the decision not be made until after Jan 20th if at all possible.
Not that the Dems are assured to make the correct decision but I believe Obama will make the best decision available.
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Old 11-14-2008, 06:46 PM   #25
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If these did not employ hundreds of thousands of people (and even more indirectly) I would very easily say let them fail.

Japanese car makers do not have the same financial woes (to the same extent anyway). So maybe capitalism has spoken, and American car makers have been rejected by the consumer on a large enough scale that it no longer makes sense to keep bailing them out.
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Old 11-14-2008, 06:56 PM   #26
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this is an excellent point, we don't have the Mercury or Plymouth models here in Canada and we're not suffering or anything... I've always wondered why they do this since it's the same exact fucking car!
It's the brand. Some people buy cars by name. If their Cadillac was now called Buick they wouldn't be as tied to the company anymore.
Most of those companies got bought by bigger ones and the name was kept for the reason of branding.

The auto manufacturing sector is, as said, huge. Whenever you learn about multiplier effects in Economics classes, it is most likely the example will be car manufacturers. To let these companies fail would result in huge job losses, and the effects of these losses would be tremendous on the whole economy. No government will risk that.
But a restructuring is needed. American car companies are huge entities that are extremely slow and disconnected from the market. If their management had done anything more than getting high on their pay checks they would have re-adjusted long before simply out of anticipating that the "bigger=better" principle couldn't last. Instead, more and more lines got dedicated to build huge SUVs and pickups. In a perfect world you would just let them pay the price for their mismanagement. But doing that, the overall costs will be extremely high.
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Old 11-14-2008, 06:56 PM   #27
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:19 PM   #28
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Ummm, the money is so they can, amongst other things,meet payroll !

New cars are designed about 3 years before they actually hit the showroom floor, in the meantime they need to sell shit and pay their workers !
The fuel efficient cars are already there. Look at the models Ford and GM sell in Europe for example - models that don't exist in the US. The problem is that low gas prices (for now) will not spur consumers to buy those smaller models, and they also have a lower profit margin.
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:36 PM   #29
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i think someone nailed it right on the head - the problem is the workers and their union. always has been. what kind of asshole believes that they DESERVE a good hourly wage, health care benefits, and a guaranteed pension? NO ONE deserves these things, let alone some guy on an assembly line! and under the new bargaining agreement that those extortionist uaw mob bosses "negotiated," new hires will be stealing about $14-16 per hour from gm!!! including benefits this will amount to about $25 per hour!!!!!! that's insane!!!! these people need to get a grip and try living in the REAL WORLD. you have to have a college degree to make $16 per hour these days!! go back to school and get a REAL job! let toyota just take over. i mean, i know that they pay large bonuses to their workers despite their more realistic hourly wage, but this is JUST TO KEEP THE EXTORTIONIST UAW MOB BOSSES OUT OF THEIR FACTORIES! let all these money suckers at gm and ford get jobs that are more on par with the economic realities. the mcdonalds in my neighborhood is ALWAYS hiring for the night shift. maybe if these slacker workers flipped burgers for a while they would know what it's like to STRUGGLE. ugh, these people just make me SICK.
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:57 PM   #30
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i think someone nailed it right on the head - the problem is the workers and their union. always has been. what kind of asshole believes that they DESERVE a good hourly wage, health care benefits, and a guaranteed pension? NO ONE deserves these things, let alone some guy on an assembly line! and under the new bargaining agreement that those extortionist uaw mob bosses "negotiated," new hires will be stealing about $14-16 per hour from gm!!! including benefits this will amount to about $25 per hour!!!!!! that's insane!!!! these people need to get a grip and try living in the REAL WORLD. you have to have a college degree to make $16 per hour these days!! go back to school and get a REAL job! let toyota just take over. i mean, i know that they pay large bonuses to their workers despite their more realistic hourly wage, but this is JUST TO KEEP THE EXTORTIONIST UAW MOB BOSSES OUT OF THEIR FACTORIES! let all these money suckers at gm and ford get jobs that are more on par with the economic realities. the mcdonalds in my neighborhood is ALWAYS hiring for the night shift. maybe if these slacker workers flipped burgers for a while they would know what it's like to STRUGGLE. ugh, these people just make me SICK.
lol.

Someone said, i think $73/hr. $73 x 40 x 52 = $151,840.

Ford CEO Paid $39.1 Million for Four Months
t r u t h o u t | Ford CEO Paid $39.1 Million for Four Months

39,000,000 x 3 = $117,000,000

$117,000,000 / $151,840 = 770 employees.

THOSE GODDAMN GREEDY UNION FUCKS IS TAKING ALL THE MONEY!!!!


Having said all that. Were you serious or being sarcastic? Because the points you make sound sarcastic, but there's a very good chance you're serious. So, I'm just making sure.
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