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Old 07-24-2011, 03:36 PM   #46
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:14 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1131 View Post
Maybe we can have a rational discussion about this without filtering it through your, uh, uniquely right-wing, militaristic Israeli world view?
I do not think it is fair to state that AchtungBono is either right wing or militaristic and she has repeatedly stated that she favours a peace process between Israel and Palestinians.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:53 PM   #48
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I think we should probably leave analogies to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and debate out of this altogether.
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Old 07-24-2011, 07:54 PM   #49
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From a column in today's Guardian:
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[Breivik] was far from what we might term a traditional rightwing extremist. While he was profoundly concerned about the effects of immigration, multiculturalism, Islam and the growth of settled Muslim communities, he was also dismissive of crude racial supremacist and neo-Nazi ideas and parties that espoused these ideas, naming for example the British National Party (BNP).

It was, perhaps, his rejection of the BNP that prompted his interest in the English Defence League (EDL). While Breivik was impressed by the speed of their growth, he also praised "tactical choices" made by their leaders. This included an endorsement of the EDL's rejection of traditional white supremacist discourse and racism, and their decision to oppose Islam on cultural grounds. This distinction between traditional race-based forms of rightwing extremism (such as those of the BNP) and a new anti-Muslim narrative reflects a broader change within the European far right. Rather than oppose immigration and Islam on racial grounds (an argument that would attract little support), the emphasis shifts on to the more socially acceptable issue of culture: Muslims are not biologically inferior, but they are culturally incompatible, so the argument goes. The aim is to open modern far right groups up to a wider audience.

Like most within the far right, while Breivik expressed profound concern over an array of threats in wider society, he appeared to view the mainstream parties as either unwilling or unable to respond adequately. He was at one time a member of the rightwing Progress party that has also rallied against immigration and voiced criticism of Muslims, but he later denounced members of this party as "politically correct career politicians" who were not prepared to "take risks and work for idealistic goals". More broadly, Breivik was also fiercely opposed to the cultural influence of Marxism and "political correctness" and called on sections of the right to counter this influence by taking control of media and other positions of influence.
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:16 AM   #50
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Just horrific. I have some extended family in Norway, and it's been heartbreaking to read their Facebook posts the last few days.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:20 AM   #51
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I do not think it is fair to state that AchtungBono is either right wing or militaristic and she has repeatedly stated that she favours a peace process between Israel and Palestinians.
Thank you for that Financeguy - I appreciate it.

I agree with Yolland, let's leave other issues out of this - and I apologize for inadverdantly bringing up the subject.

However, I was sick to my stomach this morning after reading that this butcher actually had pro-Israel feelings and he learned a lot about our government and the way it works and Israel was mentioned favorably at least 40 times in his manifesto.

Ugh!....I would rather deal with a sworn enemy than have someone like THAT on my side.
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Old 07-25-2011, 04:36 AM   #52
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I do not think it is fair to state that AchtungBono is either right wing or militaristic and she has repeatedly stated that she favours a peace process between Israel and Palestinians.
I'm sure every rational human being on this planet favours a peace process, but that doesn't change your world view nor how you filter other events through it initially, does it?

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I think we should probably leave analogies to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and debate out of this altogether.
I was hoping that as well, then I opened the thread to read a very selfish (intended as/masquerading as emphatic) post from AB.

I am very satisfied that Interference does not offer one the option of deleting previous posts, it says a lot about where a poster is coming from. Interesting how, after one day of exposition, the anti-Islamic narrative pushed by Fox News has also disappeared when the real killer has been revealed, eh? Not so convenient as the news cycle would lead you to believe, this world.
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Old 07-25-2011, 05:11 AM   #53
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Just to add, it's incredible that this man is still alive considering the situation on the island with the SWAT team closing in. I almost want the trial to be closed-doors due to the nature and severity of the crime, but reading the live updates is equally fascinating I just feel more sick than anything else, to be honest.

EDIT: Account of the situation from a witness (translated to English): http://gunkies.org/blog/?p=91

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{ 2011 07 24 }
Utøya: English version

If a single man can display so much hatred –
think only of how much love we all can display together.

– Stine Renate Håheim

I wrote a Norwegian post explaining my experience at Utøya. I had taken this blog for dead, and had entirely forgotten that it was syndicated on Planet Debian. I don’t want to let Google Translate make this disaster any worse than it is – the translation of “bullets” into “balls” being particularly bad – so the international attention the massacre has garnered in consideration, I am writing an English translation of my experiences. I feel somehow duty-bound to make people aware of what happened, but I don’t want to get into anything else but a sober description of the events and some very brief reflections. There are many details I have chosen to omit.

Others have written their experiences of the events at Utøya. I wanted to write mine down as well, and “get it out there”. Partly, I want to write this down because I’m unsure if I will remember all the details at a later point in time, although I think I’d prefer it if I couldn’t. I’m also writing this because people are asking about my experiences and it’s much better to have an URL to give them, lest I have to keep going through the same spiel over and over again.

Our former Prime Minister and current labour movement demigod Gro Harlem Brundtland had recently left the island. I had been the cameraman for a video interview of her talking about Utøya, and I was in the media group room encoding the video into a file suitable for YouTube, when someone else in the room startled and said that Twitter was full of messages about a loud explosion in Oslo. As the newspapers brought us information about the extent of the damages, a consensus arose that an informational meeting was in order. As soon as the current round of talks finished, we were gathered into the main hall.

The meeting was duly held, and after the statement was made that a TV feed would be made available, I took it upon myself as the local alpha geek to make it happen. Of course, the situation caused both the wireless network and the GPRS networks to become totally unusable. As I was waiting for someone to set up a password, I took the opportunity to face the consequences of having eaten two bits of a microwavable dish called “Hold-It” – the local equivalent of a Hot Pocket – and went to the toilet.

As I was in there, I first heard agitated shouting, then screams, then gunshots coming from just outside the toilets. More than anything else, it sounded like a toy gun. I was convinced that someone was making a joke in incredibly bad taste and I stormed out of the booth with the intent of halting it. As I tore the door open, I saw two of my comrades hiding in a recessed corner. Their facial expressions left absolutely no doubt that this was no toy. They signalled for me to get back in the booth. I closed the door, did a mental double-take in utter, complete confusion, and opened it again. They were still signalling. Had they not stood there, I would have run straight into the gunman; they saved my life. I looked out into the hallway, and I made eye contact with a young boy lying in a pool of blood. He was motioning for me to help him. I heard more gunshots from inside the building and retreated back inside.

As I was trying to think through my next move, I realized that the decidedly insubstantial wood-fiber door would not resist any kind of bullets. I made my way out into the hallway, with the intent of escaping outside. At that point, I was of course not aware that there was an intention to kill as many as possible, so I thought that the open spaces outside would be a place of relative safety. Of course, this proved to be wrong – and my life was probably saved a second time by one of the café volunteers taking me into a hard-to-spot employee’s bathroom.

We sat there for ninety minutes. Always ready to make a run for it, ready for just about anything. A peculiar group dynamic arose with these two people with whom I had barely previously spoken. We came to share a strange sense of common destiny and gallows humour. One of them had seen the shooter and described the police uniform. I perceived it to be realistic that we were the only ones aware of the wounded outside the toilet. I tried to reach the emergency services, but all their lines were busy; the terror attack in Oslo had probably clogged their lines. I finally got through to the fire services, who could inform me that the police did know about the situation and were on their way. This was to take 90 minutes – and by the time we evacuated, the young boy outside my door had perished. The despair I first saw in his eyes as I passed him, fleeing from one room to the other – and the empty, blank stare as we left, are burned into me and they are images I will never in my life forget.

Finally, the real police arrived. We walked out. I chose the path through the minor conference hall – something I now regret. The sight was simply beyond my capacity to describe fully, and so terrifying that I barely remember the sight – only the terror it struck in me. There were several people bunched up in a corner, a big amorphous heap of bodies. Some were conscious and yelled at me not to do anything that could startle the police, others lay still. Their bodies were all covered in blood, and a thick pool of blood extended at least a half-metre in all directions around them. The policeman across the hall was screaming orders at me, but he was screaming so loudly that I couldn’t make out his words at first.

We were first moved into the camp newspaper’s offices. There were about eight of us there, I think, in addition to one girl who lay wounded. Towards the end she was drifting in and out of consciousness. We covered her with sweaters to keep her warm and one of us tried to at least temper her bleeding. The bullet had missed her heart, but by the entry wound it was clear that it was not by far. I do not know who this girl was or how she is now. I sat behind and never saw her face. The wounded were evacuated first. I don’t remember how long we remained; I had lost all concept of time.

In spite of protests from the group who knew him, one kid was put in handcuffs. At the time I didn’t understand why, and the policeman seemed to say something almost to the effect that there was no reason for it at all. I didn’t see when they undid his cuffs, but I remember thinking that this treatment made a terrible experience even worse for him. I tried my best to comfort him but knew it would be little help. Later, when things stabilised a little, we were told that he was handcuffed because he had come from an unsecured area. The police was extremely good at carefully explaining what was happening and why; this was a big help and I am grateful for it.

Eventually we were moved out into the main corridor of the building, where we joined up into a group of about fifty. Only when I saw the two people who saved my life did any emotion other than mild confusion arise. I broke down shivering in tears in one of their arms. After a few seconds, I came back to my senses and realised that this was not the time. I quickly gathered myself, got the shaking under control, and sat down. We were given some chocolate and soda from the kiosk. I remember making an offhand remark that an inability to find joy in free candy was a sure sign of a bad situation. We all laughed out loud. Gallows humour is a coping mechanism, but in retrospect one almost feels guilty for it.

We were shown out in a single file with hands above our heads. I remember an intense concern that someone would slip in the steep, muddy slope and create a misunderstanding. Outside, there were more bodies. Some under improvised covers – a tarpaulin from the waffle stand, the deflated bouncy castle – but some simply lay there.

Everyone I met displayed a courage, a mental discipline and unity of purpose far beyond anything one would ever wish to expect from people this young. Everyone conducted themselves with an attitude that could almost be described as “stiff upper lip”.

Safely across the fjord we were offered blankets. I was asked if I was aware of any injuries, and asked to lift my shirt and show my abdominal region. We were shown into the bus which took us to the hotel used by the survivors and their family. I simply cannot describe in any words the relief I felt when I was able to embrace my living comrades. It was completely unlike anything I had ever felt before in my life. The euphoric feeling was tempered only by the realisation that there would be many I could never see again, comrades whom I had taken great pride in calling my friends, with futures in the service of all mankind, futures I had previously found such great joy in pondering and guessing about. The feeling which continues to upset me the most, is the feeling that so many of my comrades left behind grieving families and friends. Torn away senselessly.

I do not know how much more than this relatively sober account of the events on Utøya I can muster. I would, however, like to offer some reflections.

First of all, from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank the police who saved the lives of so many still on the island, the holidaymakers who took aboard swimmers into their boats – and the rescue services staffed primarily by volunteers who have spared no effort in trying to soften the blow as much as they can. The opportunity to spend time with those comrades who underwent the same experience as myself has also been an immeasurable aid. I was also so relieved to find my very closest friend among the survivors, which has also been an indescribable help.

If I can name a single positive in this tragedy: Had he arrived with his automatic weapon fifteen or twenty minutes prior, he would have arrived during the informational meeting, at a time when the major hall was absolutely jam-packed – the death toll would be many times what it ended up being. I am agonisingly aware of the meager comfort this provides to those who have been bereft of their closest, but I do find some solace in this.

We cannot sweep under a rug that this was – without question! – a political attack on the labour movement. But it is thankfully also an attack which has been perceived by everyone as an attack on the Norwegian society, and on a symbol of the wide recruitment to the participatory democracy which lies at our very national soul. I cannot thank the Norwegian people, and indeed the people in other nations who have offered their condolences, enough for their shows of support and shared grief. It really has been a tremendous help to me knowing that so many people feel with us.

I also want to thank from the bottom of my heart the rock-steadiness of everyone in both the national and local wings of the Labour Party and Labour Youth in supporting us, and the political milieu in general for their resolute steadfastness saving me from losing yet more that I cherish; our freedoms in a participatory democracy.

Our Party has lost many of its very brightest youngsters. Personally I feel an angry spite, a deep restless urge to get the wheels of society going again. I want to show his kind that we will not be broken. We’re stronger than that. I will not be frightened into silence and passivity. I want to remember the dead, and honor them by carrying on our common work.

I want to end this with a request to everyone who reads this, echoing a statement I read by one of my good friends and comrades: Please, don’t let me see any messages of hatred, wishes for the death penalty, anything like that. If anyone should be of the belief that anything will improve by murdering this sad little person, they would be profoundly wrong. All attention now should be plowed into caring for those victims and their relatives who did not share my luck, and not giving an audience to a perpetrator who wants one.

Tore Sinding Bekkedal
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Old 07-25-2011, 10:25 AM   #54
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I don't understand why some people are wondering if Norway would be less open following the attacks. I think Norwegians would be less open to right wing thought after all this. Maybe I'm naive, but I doubt the average Norwegian would suddenly hate Muslims just because an ethnic Norwegian killed nearly 100 people.
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:19 AM   #55
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compared to this, the world of sports is inconsequential. but this was a storybook victory, not dissimilar to the Japanese women's soccer team:

Quote:
Norwegian wins world swimming title in wake of Oslo massacre

SHANGHAI (AP) -- For a minute or two, Norwegian swimmer Alexander Dale Oen was able to block out the massacre that has traumatized his home country and focus on nothing but the pool.

As soon as he won the gold in the men's 100-meter breaststroke on Monday, however, he pointed to the Norwegian flag on his cap and then rose out of the water and flexed his biceps - a show of strength to his countrymen back home.

"We need to stay united," he said. "Everyone back home now is of course paralyzed with what happened but it was important for me to symbolize that even though I'm here in China, I'm able to feel the same emotions."

Dale Oen won in a time of 58.71 seconds, with Italy's Fabio Scozzoli taking silver in 59.42 and Cameron van der Burgh of South Africa winning the bronze in 59.49.

The Norwegain, the silver medalist in the same event at the 2008 Olympics, said it's been incredibly difficult for him to concentrate on swimming this week in the wake of the bombing and shooting spree in Norway that killed 93 people.

He's been asked repeatedly about the attacks and teared up several times. At the press conference following his victory, he wore a black piece of tape around the sleeve of his T-shirt, just below the Norwegian flag.

"I guess I was racing a little bit more with my heart today than I was technically," he said.

Dale Oen said the Norwegian team has comforted one another throughout the week, and in the hours leading up to his race, they tried to focus on "positive feelings and a positive atmosphere."

"I just tried to use what happened back home as fuel and try to think that we just need to push forward and we really need just to let everyday life come back. We can't let this guy ruin the future for us," he added, referring to Anders Behring Breivik, the right-wing extremist who has confessed to the twin terrorist attacks.

On the medal stand, though, the feelings came rushing back and he wiped away a tear.

"I was just thinking about those back home and seeing the flag and hearing the national anthem, really," he said. "Even though it's been three or four days now, it's still a shock."

Swimming Norwegian wins world swimming title in wake of Oslo massacre | Universal Sports
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Old 07-25-2011, 01:04 PM   #56
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From the Telegraph's minute-by-minute updates:

Quote:
Further quotes from Jens Breivik, the father of Anders:
I think that ultimately he should have taken his own life rather than kill so many people. I will never have any more contact with him. [Yes, these are strong words from a father about his son] but when I think of what happened, I'm filled with despair. I still don't understand how something like this could happen. No-one normal could do that.
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Old 07-25-2011, 05:22 PM   #57
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Here's everyone's favourite shitbag raising his hateful head again:

Norway shooting: Glenn Beck compares dead teenagers to Hitler youth - Telegraph

Oh, and...

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Originally Posted by Glenn Beck
"I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."
You do, you dumb fuck.

Tea party group offers summer camp - St. Petersburg Times
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:39 PM   #58
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TBH, political camps for kids are a trifle disturbing.
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Old 07-25-2011, 06:58 PM   #59
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i wasn't aware glenn beck posted on interference.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:13 PM   #60
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I officially find Glenn Beck disgusting. Before I found him annoying, but now he is at the bottom of my list and will stay there for a long time.
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