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Old 02-21-2010, 05:31 PM   #16
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I thought this would come up. There maybe some truth in that but if you look at crime statistics and if you look at how people dress and act I still think there has been a coarsening of the culture that for some is very observable. My entire life so far has included witnessing bad behaviour so it unfortunately seems expected and normal, but the way that children are getting sexualized sooner (even high heel shoes for babies) is a concern. Not everyone has bad behaviour and we don't have to go back to the '50s but I like being courteous to people in traffic and having the same done to me and I think everyone would like to see that more often.

Though I thought it was funny when one wife of a teacher told me that he said "grade 8 was the armpit of humanity". I know because I remember.
It's a different time, but I think the whole perception that this generation has worse behavior than the last one is pure bullshit. I think that perception has happened with every generation for a very long time.
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Old 02-21-2010, 05:53 PM   #17
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It's a different time, but I think the whole perception that this generation has worse behavior than the last one is pure bullshit. I think that perception has happened with every generation for a very long time.
Yeah but there is an observable narcissism that's creeping into workplaces and starts at school. Psychologists admit that the self-esteem movement went too far. Some of the accusations maybe are bullshit but entitlement behaviour is increasing. I don't think teaching manners even in this old-fashioned way will do damage.
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Old 02-21-2010, 06:42 PM   #18
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Yeah but there is an observable narcissism that's creeping into workplaces and starts at school.
I disagree, it starts at home. In my line of work, I get to deal with "helicopter parents" face to face all the time. We once had a parent come in and ask if she could do a job interview for her son. We are talking about college, someone 18 years old at minimum and his MOM not only wanted to do the job interview in his place, but it was her idea! I am 100% convinced that the self-entitlement attitude we are now seeing starts at home. Manners, responsibility, accountability....these are things that parents need to teach. That's not to say they can't be valued in school as well but it's the parents responsibility to teach their child, not shelter them, spoil them, and make excuses for them. I am consistently embarrassed by peers in my generation who seem to think they deserve everything their parents have (job security, comfortable home, life savings and retirement...) without having to actually work for it.
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Old 02-21-2010, 06:44 PM   #19
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That's great you found a place right for you, but in some of the places I've been your actions wouldn't be liked by males or females simply because the environment is different. Some environments are politically correct and psychotic and others can joke all they want.
So what's the point then? If the environment was so vastly different somewhere else, then I doubt I'd be working there. That's what makes a working environment work - how the co-workers fit the corporate "culture". It has nothing to do with females making sure they act feminine.
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:29 PM   #20
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So what's the point then? If the environment was so vastly different somewhere else, then I doubt I'd be working there. That's what makes a working environment work - how the co-workers fit the corporate "culture". It has nothing to do with females making sure they act feminine.
I think we are getting off track with side issues and the examples of bad behaviour and inappropriate office attitudes I mentioned. If a teacher wants to start rectifying it in school then it's a breath of fresh air. Most teachers I knew just wanted to get a paycheque and go home and would dodge having to discipline the kids because they were afraid of parents complaining.

This teacher had this problem:

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Boys treat girls pretty roughly," he said. "And there was so much disruption, so I decided to do something about it."
He seemed to think it was necessary and he found that the boys looked at the girls with more respect and found them feminine. Looking at the girls as feminine doesn't have to mean going back to the dark ages or something extreme. Hopefully this will translate into their working lives and relationships. The way some boys treat girls in the junior high I went to was closer to sexual abuse or the boys would fight over the girls. Some of them ended up in jail for rape or attempted rape for their lack of respect. At least this teacher is doing something before their behaviour goes too far.

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"There are some fundamental rules that are important for kids to learn, like looking someone in the eye when talking to them," Leonard said. "And there can be a role for the school to play, especially if etiquette isn't being taught at home."
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"The only negative thing I've heard are parents calling to make sure that their daughters say 'thank you' to the boys," Rosta said.
Unless there's some secret plan to make women live with less rights like in Jane Austen's time I don't see the problem. Good manners are welcome in any environment.

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"There's a different tenor in the class, a gravity attached to the girls. They've been more feminized in the boys' eyes,"
In other words the boys are the ones changing which looks like an improvement from how they are described normally.

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Also, once these boys graduate from the school and go to college, will they continue being gentlemen to girls? Personally, I doubt it because peer pressure will get the worst of them.
That's true but that tells us about the predominent cultural pressures we live in. Most teachers wouldn't get involved much in etiquette. The main message we get from our modern culture is self-importance at the expense of others.
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Old 02-21-2010, 08:12 PM   #21
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Yeah but there is an observable narcissism that's creeping into workplaces and starts at school. Psychologists admit that the self-esteem movement went too far. Some of the accusations maybe are bullshit but entitlement behaviour is increasing. I don't think teaching manners even in this old-fashioned way will do damage.
This is all speculation. I'd say it's more subjective than your posts indicate.

Look, I graduated high school a year ago. I've been through the system recently, but have been away enough to have a reasonably objective viewpoint. I found that most problems I observed in school were the exact same problems happening at schools everywhere, problems that have been happening for decades. The only behaviors I would describe as exuding a sense of entitlement were from people who were known to come from money. Which leads me to believe entitlement hasn't changed one bit: it's got nothing to do with schooling, it's got to do with parenting. If you come from a home where both parents work hard and get a reasonable but limiting income, you're not going to feel entitled. It's those children whose parents make large sums; those who own shore houses, get a new car the day they get their license, don't have to concern themselves with how much colleges they're applying to cost ... it's those children who seem to have "entitlement." But that's got nothing to do with schooling. And that's got nothing to do with this generation. It has to do with social class. That's not unique to teenagers in the 2000s.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:20 PM   #22
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This is all speculation. I'd say it's more subjective than your posts indicate.

Look, I graduated high school a year ago. I've been through the system recently, but have been away enough to have a reasonably objective viewpoint. I found that most problems I observed in school were the exact same problems happening at schools everywhere, problems that have been happening for decades. The only behaviors I would describe as exuding a sense of entitlement were from people who were known to come from money. Which leads me to believe entitlement hasn't changed one bit: it's got nothing to do with schooling, it's got to do with parenting. If you come from a home where both parents work hard and get a reasonable but limiting income, you're not going to feel entitled. It's those children whose parents make large sums; those who own shore houses, get a new car the day they get their license, don't have to concern themselves with how much colleges they're applying to cost ... it's those children who seem to have "entitlement." But that's got nothing to do with schooling. And that's got nothing to do with this generation. It has to do with social class. That's not unique to teenagers in the 2000s.
I see what you are saying but this is a different discussion. The entitlement I'm talking about is being crude to others because others don't matter. It's clear the narcissism is increasing due to the fact that religion was replaced with nothing for many people.

News | SDSU | 'Narcissism Epidemic' Spreading Among College Students

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The new study evaluated more than 20,000 college students between 2002 and 2007 and found a faster rate of increase in narcissistic traits overall than an earlier study that evaluated students between 1982 and 2006.

"The increase in narcissistic traits is just the tip of the iceberg," Twenge said. "Even more disturbing is how narcissism and attention-seeking have become rampant in our culture, from girls sending naked pictures of themselves on cell phones to plastic surgery rates more than doubling in just ten years."

The new research, published in a recent issue of the Journal of Research in Personality, is consistent with a recent study that found nearly 10 percent of people in their 20s had experienced symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder at some time in their life.
Here's a good tip on how to deal with them or not if you can avoid them:

YouTube - Self-Help Tips : How to Handle a Narcissist
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:27 PM   #23
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.

In fact in my last job interview the male boss asked me how I deal with women. Since I've worked in offices with prodominently women before I had the right answers.
Honestly I still can't get past this. I don't know where it is that you work, and maybe it is totally different than my place of employment, but there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD that I can imagine that a male lawyer would be asked at a firm interview how it is that he deals with women. I don't even have words for that, to be honest. And I have a hard time understanding why this is asked at an interview, why it's ok for something like this to be asked, and furthermore what these alleged "right answers" are.

As for this alleged women's expectation that you should protect our feelings, also really strange - I don't know what that even means, nevermind that I find it to be completely untrue of my workplace environment.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:29 PM   #24
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:32 PM   #25
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Honestly I still can't get past this. I don't know where it is that you work, and maybe it is totally different than my place of employment, but there is NO WAY IN THE WORLD that I can imagine that a male lawyer would be asked at a firm interview how it is that he deals with women.
I know. My first reaction would be, "... is this a trick question?" Is there an appropriate answer other than "like a human being?"

Is he just trying to weed out the people who would say "I slap them on the ass and tell me to get me some coffee"?
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:50 PM   #26
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It's clear the narcissism is increasing due to the fact that religion was replaced with nothing for many people.
You're certainly not shy about pronouncing opinion as fact.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:58 PM   #27
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Yeah but there is an observable narcissism that's creeping into workplaces and starts at school.
I'm somewhat amazed by how disconnected from reality you are, yet I'm not. And then I'm befuddled by how you blame narcissism in a very narcissistic tone yet don't even realize the irony.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:03 AM   #28
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Is he just trying to weed out the people who would say "I slap them on the ass and tell me to get me some coffee"?


don't pretend like you don't like it, sweetheart.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:15 AM   #29
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"I slap them on the ass and tell me to get me some coffee"
That is so Mad Men.
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Old 02-22-2010, 12:31 AM   #30
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You ever wonder why they just didn't go for the handful?
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