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Old 10-13-2010, 09:58 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by I Move in Mysterious Ways View Post
Also largely contributed to the victory of the Allies over Germany and Japan in 1945.
How is that in any way the same? In 1941, we were attacked by a powerful, organized army, and consequently declared war on them. People were behind the U.S. 100% on the merits of the war itself, not because they felt obligated.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:05 PM   #17
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Our military is trained in such a way so that they always excersise good judgement to the best of their abilities at the situation at hand.
Always? Perhaps a good deal of the time, sure, but I'd find it hard to believe that's always the case. The people in the military are human, they're going to make mistakes and screw up just like anyone else.

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Not everyone deals with the stress of war the same way, but generally it takes a long time for that sort of thing to take effect in the middle of a combat zone.
I mean no disrespect, but I find that kinda hard to believe as well, simply considering what combat and war entails, considering the troubling, horrible things people will see humans do to each other before their very eyes.

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Also, when the Army and other branches of the armed forces continue to target lower-income and minority neighbourhoods when recruiting, you end up with many people with not a lot of hope in life coming out after their service with not a lot of hope in life and the capability to be efficient killers. Killing little brown folks overseas for the White House is largely the business of the poor and minorities in the US, and it does nothing to help with the widening gap between the haves and have-nots.
Exactly. Well said. I can think of a few towns I've lived in where this scenario playing out is quite likely.

Angela
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:08 PM   #18
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I mean no disrespect, but I find that kinda hard to believe as well, simply considering what combat and war entails, considering the troubling, horrible things people will see humans do to each other before their very eyes.
What I'm saying is it 99.9% of the time it doesn't make you go on a rampage and kill innocent civilians. The people on that website make it sound like its the other way around.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:10 PM   #19
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^

I don't believe that 99.9% number. And I say that as somebody who was a civilian (as a child) in a war zone. Maybe it makes you feel better, but there won't be a day from now until I die when I will believe it to be true.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
What I'm saying is it 99.9% of the time it doesn't make you go on a rampage and kill innocent civilians. The people on that website make it sound like its the other way around.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying .

Of course you're right that there are people who don't go on rampages, who manage to deal with the stresses they went through and all that sort of thing. But I do believe it does happen more often than most people realize, be it abroad or when they get back home. Or, at the very least, the threat of such an occurrence is hovering.

Angela
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:23 PM   #21
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I don't believe that 99.9% number. And I say that as somebody who was a civilian (as a child) in a war zone. Maybe it makes you feel better, but there won't be a day from now until I die when I will believe it to be true.
If you don't mind me asking, which war zone was that?
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:30 PM   #22
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Balkans.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:46 PM   #23
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I don't know how training is now for our soldiers. I can't give numbers or percentages. But, during the sixties and Vietnam. Poor and middle class kids were drafted right out of High School. They didn't have much of a choice. Training was mimimal and the next stop was hell. Rich kids, well they had their right to protest. At the nearest Ivy League College.

I can only express what my family members went through. I am in no way an expert. But, my dad and brother deserved so much more from our government. When they came home. No one should have had to suffer, like they did. It was yeah your home and f-y. Let's call it a day. No one cares if you suffer for the rest of your shortened life.

When my son was age 13 to 14. There was the ROTC at his school. He brought home a paper and asked if he could join? His dad and I said. Absolutely not. Age fourteen is too young to recruit. Plus, it pissed me off to no end. That ROTC was only located in the middle class and poorer neighborhood public schools. None in the wealthy public schools. And yes there are some.
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by I Move in Mysterious Ways View Post
Also largely contributed to the victory of the Allies over Germany and Japan in 1945.
Selective quoting is the first sign of someone who has no good argument or someone who is too lazy to make a good argument.

It's pretty obvious from what I wrote i was talking about the modern era.

No shit, of course we supported the troops in WWII (read: because they had no choice whether to serve or not, you twat).

The modern US Military is a job, not a calling, not a duty.

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What I'm saying is it 99.9% of the time it doesn't make you go on a rampage and kill innocent civilians. The people on that website make it sound like its the other way around.
Yes, that website is pretty wacky. Let's ignore it and instead think of the fact that, yes, military training is meant to instill discipline and a cool head under fire. A side effect of that and deployment in an active warzone is being very desensitized to violence and killing.

Combined with the stresses of active duty, in a role as an occupier, fighting a mostly invisible enemy, serving in a day-to-day military culture that downplays or outright mocks psychological issues, it's very plausible that otherwise very nice people crack and do horrific things.

Also, let's face it, a lot of people with deep-seeded, preexisting psychological problems wind up in the military or police forces. There are people like this in every day life and work, but Stevey (who was molested at age 5) down at the local pool cleaning company probably doesn't have access to a storage locker full of grenades, and he isn't spending day-in, day-out in a culture that experiences and sometimes promotes violence.

The military does not automatically churn out nutcases. I know people who have really benefited from the structure and discipline instilled from a couple of years of service. Pushing a blue button repeatedly and loading cases of shells onto transports in Grand Forks probably won't fuck you up for life. But the guys on the ground right now in Iraq or Afghanistan can't count on a great deal of government-funded support for psychological issues in the field or when discharged.
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
What I'm saying is it 99.9% of the time it doesn't make you go on a rampage and kill innocent civilians. The people on that website make it sound like its the other way around.
Pac_Mule the statistics refute this.

And this does't neccesarily reflect poorly upon the military, but it's just a fact that certain jobs attract certain people, and certain jobs shape certain people.

Sadly there is a small percentage that is attracted to the military for the violent aspect of war, same with the police force, security, etc...

There's also a small percentage(although recent studies show that certain wars are worse than others and this particular war is pretty bad) that are extremely affected by the environment and the circumstances of war that make these people violent.

Once again, not a reflection of the military, but more a reflection of violence.
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Old 10-14-2010, 12:03 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1131 View Post
Selective quoting is the first sign of someone who has no good argument or someone who is too lazy to make a good argument.

It's pretty obvious from what I wrote i was talking about the modern era.

No shit, of course we supported the troops in WWII (read: because they had no choice whether to serve or not, you twat).

The modern US Military is a job, not a calling, not a duty.
Sounds to me like the pissy response of someone who never made a gutsy decision in his life.
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:14 AM   #27
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(read: because they had no choice whether to serve or not, you twat)

I guess my recent pm to you fell on deaf ears? Name calling is not necessary.
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:21 AM   #28
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Sadly there is a small percentage that is attracted to the military for the violent aspect of war, same with the police force, security, etc...
*Nods* I remember reading an article in Newsweek once about how there are some members of the military who are REALLY into their job, to the point where they don't want to come home, they don't want to get back to "normal" life and deal with bills and family and other people in general. And when they are home, they're very, very isolated and touchy and restless. They're perfectly happy staying in the war zone their whole lives. Of course, I know that you can find instances of people in any job who are unusually devoted to their work and can share those same characteristics when they're not working, but given the duties of this specific job, it can be particular cause for some concern.

That article was pretty unsettling, actually-I felt kinda nervous for the guys' wives. I remember one of them talking about how she pretty much had to tiptoe around her husband and learn to read his "moods" so she'd know when to be near him and when to stay away. He practically freaked out on her one day when she accidentally dropped a laundry basket.

A stor, your story about the recruiters and your son-yikes. The thought of trying to recruit 14 year olds for the military is incredibly troubling to me-I wouldn't let my son or daughter join at that age, either. When they're at the age where they're legally able to do such things, they can do what they wish, but until then...no. I find it amazing that I constantly hear people decry violence in video games and movies and TV for fear that it'll negatively influence teenagers (or children)...but recruiting them for the military is okay, apparently. At least the violence in a video game is fake, nobody is actually dying.

Angela
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:23 AM   #29
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Wow.

So according to a few posters, there are at least 150,000 war criminals currently walking around in the US military, or have been discharged since the two wars began.

Because for 99.9% to not be accurate, that's how many you'd need.

Bullshit hyperbole
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:55 AM   #30
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Exactly who said this?
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