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Old 10-31-2008, 11:21 PM   #1
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Stable societies are founded on a stable and prosperous middle class

No link, I would like to develop a thesis of my own here.

A little bit of old fashioned class warfare for you, though not of the Marxist variant.

I'm middle class. Big deal. So are most of you.

Are middle class people better off today than our parents, grandparents? I am not convinced that we are.

Now, fair enough, the working class ARE better off. They don't have to go down mineshafts for 21 hours a day, or whatever.

But, whose working class any more, in the West? The working class and the middle class are the same - i.e., people that work and support society.

We have an upper class and a middle/working class and an under class. The upper class and the underclass are, frankly, leeches that live off the middle class. The upper class evade tax and don't pay their fair share, and the under class steal, rob and assault (usually each other, but sometimes they assault the middle/working class) and live off welfare. Sometimes, the middle class fight back (see here: Pensioner tackles thieving, thuggish cowards , for example), but it's rare enough. Sorry, but it's true. I've seen both these classes of people in action, and they are leeches.

So, if you agree with this and if you are middle class and if you will be voting soon, then vote accordingly.

Think about which candidate will advance your interests.

Is it Obama?

Is it McCain?

Is it someone else?

Let me bring it to a point.

Are an immensely wealthy career (and opportunist) politician, or alternatively, a careerist, opportunist (and relatively wealthy) former 'community organiser' people that have the best interests of your class at heart?

Is there another candidate worth considering?

http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com/news/
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:27 PM   #2
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How precisely do you define upper, middle, and under classes? By income? If so, where are the cut off points for each class.

I'd like to know, because I think you just called me a leech who steals, robs, assaults, and lives off welfare.

Your reply determines what I call you.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:36 PM   #3
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How precisely do you define upper, middle, and under classes? By income? If so, where are the cut off points for each class.

I'd like to know, because I think you just called me a leech who steals, robs, assaults, and lives off welfare.

Your reply determines what I call you.
No, income is absolutely not the defining boundary here. This is a common mistake, to define class boundaries as just based on income.

Incidentally, you're clearly middle/working class. Same class as me.

I'm against the interests of wealthy tax-evading leeches and robbing, violent, underclass leeches. I'm in favour of the interests of people like you and me.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:39 PM   #4
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Just to clarify.

It is one of the defining features of the underclass that they live only on welfare , but it is only one of many. However, this is not necessarily true in reverse. By no means is everyone who is on welfare part of the underclass.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:39 PM   #5
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Leech reporting for duty.

I have always voted AGAINST my own self-interest. I have voted for parties which did not advance my interests, propose tax cuts for people like me or anything of the sort. To be honest, money doesn't mean that much to me, which I suppose is easy to say when you are not broke, but I grew up VERY poor, and on the inside, I guess I never forgot that.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:44 PM   #6
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The middle class spend too much money. It doesn't matter how much they make. Saving money is what makes the middle class increase in size. Any government that keeps spending in check so the taxes don't increase and open trade with other countries will give the environment for success. The rest is up to US.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:46 PM   #7
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The middle class spend too much money. It doesn't matter how much they make. Saving money is what makes the middle class increase in size. Any government that keeps spending in check so the taxes don't increase and open trade with other countries will give the environment for success. The rest is up to US.
All that spending does keep people employed.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Leech reporting for duty.

I have always voted AGAINST my own self-interest. I have voted for parties which did not advance my interests, propose tax cuts for people like me or anything of the sort. To be honest, money doesn't mean that much to me, which I suppose is easy to say when you are not broke, but I grew up VERY poor, and on the inside, I guess I never forgot that.
You are exactly the type of middle class person that people of my way of thinking - which I admit could be seen as a bit right wing - need to convince - and, evidently, thus far I'm not doing a good job of it!

I don't precisely know why you think I was proposing tax cuts for the wealthy, as I specifically singled out tax evading crooks in my OP - people that, as I said, I have direct experience of - and I have no doubt you will too, in your career as a lawyer.

But, for the sake of argument, why on earth do you think that it's good for society overall that people such as yourself vote AGAINST your own best interests?

I ask you quite honestly, I am not trying to start a row here.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The middle class spend too much money. It doesn't matter how much they make. Saving money is what makes the middle class increase in size. Any government that keeps spending in check so the taxes don't increase and open trade with other countries will give the environment for success. The rest is up to US.
Would agree with this.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:54 PM   #10
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All that spending does keep people employed.
We all spend money but if we go into debt we over consume leading to too much debt. At some point we must stop or go bankrupt. Either option retail spending will slow leading to recessions. If the middle class saves 20% on the average over their life time they will be creating jobs and be more independent. You can't increase wealth without capital assets and capital assets need savings deposited in the bank to lend to companies to ignite the economy.

Yet if we don't save much the government is forced to print money or electronically make more money to keep the economy going. I've decided that anybody who thinks they are a conservative but don't understand the role of savings in the economy need to start researching the role of savings. To see people think jobs are only related to spending shows how pervasive Keynesian economics has been for decades.

Can't people save 10-20% and spend the rest? Why go into massive debt? Retirement is going to suck without a nest-egg.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:55 PM   #11
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But, for the sake of argument, why on earth do you think that it's good for society overall that people such as yourself vote AGAINST your own best interests?

I ask you quite honestly, I am not trying to start a row here.
Because the stability of our society doesn't depend on people like me - it is precisely as you've stated it.

Some of the upper class does as I do actually out of self-interest in an indirect way. If you think about it, the more poor the lower class is, and the more desperate they are, the more instability you have out there which causes financial woes for the upper classes as well. It is not in the best interest of the upper class to have people living in the streets, or turning to corruption or criminal activity as you see in many developing countries. In that sense, pushing policies that may be directly contrary to your self-interest is also to some extent not altruistic at all.

Just a nitpick - wealthy people don't evade taxes, they avoid them. It sounds like semantics, but one is illegal and the other one is smart lawyering.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:59 PM   #12
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I will also say that in my observation, it is not the upper class that is really the largest source of the problems you are talking about, but the upper middle class. These are the people who tend to really have the "I got mine, fuck you" attitude, they are not old money, they have no history of being wealthy and frankly lack a lot of the class that comes along with it. They think they are wealthy but not really, and they largely move to McMansions in the burbs and then start voting for right wing parties which wage war against the middle class.

The ultra wealthy, especially the old money wealthy, have a different understanding of the world entirely. That is my observation anyway, but I find it very, very easy to spot the differences.
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:07 AM   #13
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It is not in the best interest of the upper class to have people living in the streets, or turning to corruption or criminal activity as you see in many developing countries.
I'm afraid that I disagree. It is precisely in the interests of the upper class to do just that, and the developing countries that you allude to are a very good example. It is very much in their interests to set the underclass against the middle class - but, as you've said, there are some of the upper class that have some sense of a moral conscience.

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Just a nitpick - wealthy people don't evade taxes, they avoid them. It sounds like semantics, but one is illegal and the other one is smart lawyering.
Wealthy tax evaders that get out of paying their fair share are scum. And lawyers and accountants that facilitate them are scum.
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:10 AM   #14
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Would agree with this.
Again, the middle class is least likely to shrink from rule, or to be over-ambitious for it; both of which are injuries to the state. Again, those who have too much of the goods of fortune, strength, wealth, friends, and the like, are neither willing nor able to submit to authority. The evil begins at home; for when they are boys, by reason of the luxury in which they are brought up, they never learn, even at school, the habit of obedience. On the other hand, the very poor, who are in the opposite extreme, are too degraded. So that the one class cannot obey, and can only rule despotically; the other knows not how to command and must be ruled like slaves. Thus arises a city, not of freemen, but of masters and slaves, the one despising, the other envying; and nothing can be more fatal to friendship and good fellowship in states than this: for good fellowship springs from friendship; when men are at enmity with one another, they would rather not even share the same path. But a city ought to be composed, as far as possible, of equals and similars; and these are generally the middle classes. Wherefore the city which is composed of middle-class citizens is necessarily best constituted in respect of the elements of which we say the fabric of the state naturally consists. And this is the class of citizens which is most secure in a state, for they do not, like the poor, covet their neighbors' goods; nor do others covet theirs, as the poor covet the goods of the rich; and as they neither plot against others, nor are themselves plotted against, they pass through life safely. Wisely then did Phocylides pray- 'Many things are best in the mean; I desire to be of a middle condition in my city.' ~ Aristotle

Of course this was a city state described by Aristotle around 350BC and we have updated since then but it was already known that the best societies are ones with a larger middle class. The rich are spoiled and the poor are envious and the middle class is on the tight rope. They can't screw up like decadent rich people but they don't usually have the ambition to be masters of the universe controlling everyone and they have a stake in society to defend. The flaw based on the time period is that the poor had no choice but slavery and when that was thrown off more recently, even more people joined the middle classes.
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:16 AM   #15
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I will also say that in my observation, it is not the upper class that is really the largest source of the problems you are talking about, but the upper middle class. These are the people who tend to really have the "I got mine, fuck you" attitude, they are not old money, they have no history of being wealthy and frankly lack a lot of the class that comes along with it. They think they are wealthy but not really, and they largely move to McMansions in the burbs and then start voting for right wing parties which wage war against the middle class.

The ultra wealthy, especially the old money wealthy, have a different understanding of the world entirely. That is my observation anyway, but I find it very, very easy to spot the differences.
This is romantic delusion. Surprising, from you.

See here, for example:-

Ansbacher: 700 on tax dodge hit list | Sunday Mirror | Find Articles at BNET
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