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Old 11-12-2009, 10:07 AM   #76
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The problems were candidates getting kicked out for having sex in the washroom, carrying women's rucksacks on long marches, and the obvious double standards in the evaluations between men and women (for example - our "top" candidate was a woman that weighed about 80 lbs, was literally carried on road marches, was frazzled by anything unexpected...etc). I am not saying she needs to be as strong as an Infantry soldier - but minimum standards should be enforced. This soured morale and unit cohesion suffered (one of my points).
So the women are to blame for the sex? Can you understand why that logic doesn't make sense to most people? People still have choices to make, if those canidates couldn't control themselves they probably didn't belong there, how are they going to control themselves in other situations?

You are talking about OCS, the whole purpose is to weed out those that get frazzled, and I'm pretty sure if you thought hard enough you would find a lot of other reasons and situations that weakened cohesion that had nothing to do with women.

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I try to answer the several points as best I can as they come up by various posters. In here, I am more in "reactive" mode so I try to answer or address comments one by one - and this can get me off tangent.
Can you really be in "reactive" mode when it was you who sent us on this tangent. Other posters have just been showing you how your logic doesn't work, and that's when you start bringing up other points.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:33 AM   #77
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while i understand the response to some of AEON's posts, i want to point out that they have been very calm and very respectful of other posters.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:53 AM   #78
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The problems were candidates getting kicked out for having sex in the washroom, carrying women's rucksacks on long marches, and the obvious double standards in the evaluations between men and women
You know it takes two to tango, right? So, if we ban all women then we spare men of all that temptation to get it on in the bathrooms or try to prove their machismo by covering for the girl that can't carry her own shit...heck why don't we just put all the women in robes and headscarves while we are at it....

If it were up to me, I'd toss out anyone that can't comply with simple rules or meet the universal standards for the job. So everyone having a quickie in the bathroom is gone, anyone who cannot carry their own weight or feels the need to cover for someone else, bye bye....

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I am more in "reactive" mode so I try to answer or address comments one by one - and this can get me off tangent.
Hey you started it

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It has to do with the sexual/morale problems that it would cause in the field or battlezone (among other things). Commanders have much more important things to manage during missions than jealousies, sexual misconduct, lover's quarrels, temptation, favoritism...etc.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:55 AM   #79
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Other posters have just been showing you how your logic doesn't work.
Summary of my position (two main points)


1) The Infantry requires physical attributes that exclude most men, and nearly all women. The number of women that could pass the training to actual standard would be so small - it would be entirely cost prohibitive to make special accommodations for these very, very few.

If we did allow these "super women" in...
2) Unit cohesion and trust are HUGE components to a successful mission in the Infantry. Unlike other jobs in the military - the Infantry unit can spend weeks (or perhaps even months) out in the field. The Infantry is made up young men in their late teens and early twenties (and are generally what some would describe as uber-masculine football player type). Adding the occasional female into the mix would certainly cause problems. Is it the fault of the boys (like throwing a match into a powder keg and we all know it - so please stop pretending that 18 year old boys aren't 18 year old boys)? The girl? The leaders? My answer is "yes"- all the above are possible in any given circumstance. Can extra training and fear of disciplinary actions resolve this (i.e. can it make an 18 year old not so horny)? Perhaps. Is it worth having combat leaders worrying and managing all this for that occasional exception-especially when lives depend on their ability to execute a battle plan? My conclusion is no. Is it entirely fair? Of course not. Is it best possible scenario despite this unfairness? I think it is.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:01 AM   #80
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Unlike other jobs in the military - the Infantry unit can spend weeks (or perhaps even months) out in the field. The Infantry is made up young men in their late teens and early twenties (and are generally what some would describe as uber-masculine football player type). Adding the occasional female into the mix would certainly cause problems.
This situation is not unique to the military. When my dad did NOLS out of high school (and he was the uber-masculine football player) his tent partner was a girl. His one complaint is that she used three times as much toilet paper but other than that was every bit as capable as him. And no, he was not overrun by carnal urges for those several weeks.

AEON, what's sad to me is not that I think what you are saying is untrue, but that the freedom and security of our nation and even at times our world is being put in the hands of young boys who apparently cannot even keep their willies in their pants long enough to take their job seriously and focus on the task at hand. I guess if anything, this is sure a revealing thread If not borderline disrespectful of the brave men and women who have served honorably without letting highschool hormones get in their way.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:22 AM   #81
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it does seem to me that the fear of male and female soldiers having sex in the trenches is akin to the fear of showering with gay men, only it seems that one is less of an issue than the other.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:40 AM   #82
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I had no idea every single military operation involved carrying 8 tons of equipment up the world's largest mountain.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:42 PM   #83
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1) The Infantry requires physical attributes that exclude most men, and nearly all women. The number of women that could pass the training to actual standard would be so small - it would be entirely cost prohibitive to make special accommodations for these very, very few.
I'm confused. What kind of special accommodations would have to be made for women that have the physical attributes necessary for the position?

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If we did allow these "super women" in...
2) Unit cohesion and trust are HUGE components to a successful mission in the Infantry. Unlike other jobs in the military - the Infantry unit can spend weeks (or perhaps even months) out in the field. The Infantry is made up young men in their late teens and early twenties (and are generally what some would describe as uber-masculine football player type). Adding the occasional female into the mix would certainly cause problems. Is it the fault of the boys (like throwing a match into a powder keg and we all know it - so please stop pretending that 18 year old boys aren't 18 year old boys)? The girl? The leaders? My answer is "yes"- all the above are possible in any given circumstance. Can extra training and fear of disciplinary actions resolve this (i.e. can it make an 18 year old not so horny)? Perhaps. Is it worth having combat leaders worrying and managing all this for that occasional exception-especially when lives depend on their ability to execute a battle plan? My conclusion is no. Is it entirely fair? Of course not. Is it best possible scenario despite this unfairness? I think it is.
I think it's pretty unfortunate that rather than expecting (and enforcing) maturity in our armed forces, we simply exclude women because "boys will be boys."
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:12 PM   #84
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Is it entirely fair? Of course not.
Not only is it not fair, it's ignorant and inmature.

Do we really want boys on the battlefield, or can we expect them to be men?
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:15 PM   #85
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I'm confused. What kind of special accommodations would have to be made for women that have the physical attributes necessary for the position?
At Infantry training camps - additional bathrooms, additional showers, additional sleeping quaters, additional training on what can/can't happen in the field (I'm speaking of the gray areas - yes, the black and white should be obvious).

In the field - separate foxholes (yet still somehow maintain the "buddy" sytem if there is only one female in the platoon), additional training to somehow keep men from overeacting to a wounded woman (as was the case in the Israeli army).

Just some examples off the top of my head. But hey, if women were held to SAME EXACT STANDARD as men, across the board - then I would perhaps concede this point.

Does anyone find it strange that if this truly was some grievous assault on woman's rights, in this day and age - that Obama hasn't signed an executive order to instantly reverse the practice?
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:19 PM   #86
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Do we really want boys on the battlefield, or can we expect them to be men?
Move the minimum age requirement to 30? How well behaved were you at 18?
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:25 PM   #87
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Move the minimum age requirement to 30? How well behaved were you at 18?
30? Wow, you really don't have faith in men...

I was raised to respect women, so at age 10, 18, 55 it doesn't matter I always have and will be well behaved. And I sure as hell knew how to keep it in my pants at 18...
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:45 PM   #88
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I think I'm going to close up shop on this topic now, thanks for the great questions and responses. There are many other points that could be made - a little research on the Internet is filled with information that support both sides of the argument (several interesting ones concerning evolutionary biology).

I don't blame women for wanting to be the Infantry any more than I blame a woman for wanting to play for the Dallas Cowboys. However, I do so the reasoning behind not allowing them to do either. To me it is obvious, to others - it is not so obvious. I don't feel anyone that objects to my opinion is an idiot or a child. As long as people remain generally courteous - then productive discussion can occur and I will do my best to respond.
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:50 PM   #89
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I think the problem with this thread is that we are making generalizations about a small slice of the pie. The military is a huge multi-billion dollar organization. Fighting on the front lines and sharing foxholes is a small part of what they do. I know plenty of women who have served as dcotors, nurses, surgeons, pilots, in the air force, doing skilled technical work, recruiting, navy, .... heck my original job idea was to study atmospheric science and join the air force. These "problems" of having to share a foxhole with a horny 18 year old have never had any bearing on how capable they are of doing the job the same as any man, alongside a man.
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:00 PM   #90
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No offense - but is that what you say to everyone that disagrees with you? Can someone have a contrary opinion without being called a nitwit or child? I'm 39, I have a BS degree in MIS and a BS in English Literature as well as an MBA in International Finance - and quite a bit of graduate level seminary (working on Mdiv and hopefully a PhD). I've been an enlisted grunt and an officer. I worked for dotcoms, two Fortune 500 companies and a well established biotech company. I've been to every continent except Antarctica. I've also served as an associate pastor at my church. My point is - I'm not some fresh kid who hasn't seen "the world"
AEON,

I admire you for going to OCS at this age. You have to get your commission a day before you turn 40 right? Also, what OCS are we talking?

But by growing up, I simply mean I think you have some more discovery to do. I'm continuing to grow up myself (I'm 2 years older than you).

Combat Arms is where we draw the line today, but you and I know that a female fighter pilot, tank driver, or nuclear engineer on an aircraft carrier would be more than capable of conducting combat, and in every way in as much danger as their comrades beside them in the fight.

One of the most pleasant experiences I had was coming back from Iraq in a C-17 commanded by a female pilot, and no, not because she was cute and I wanted to have sex with her (not saying she was or was not). But because I knew that she was every bit capable, and I could empathize with her, and her family, and be just as proud of/for her and respect her as if she were male.

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for wanting to play for the Dallas Cowboys. However, I do so the reasoning behind not allowing them to do either
But what about a female place kicker? Got a problem with that?
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