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Old 11-11-2009, 01:42 PM   #61
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Women successfully serve with men in combat roles on the front lines in the Canadian military. While serving in Afghanistan 2006 Captain Nichola Goddard(Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) became the first combat-deployed Canadian female to die in combat. Canadian men and women make up the highest per capita casualties out of all Allied nations in the 8 years they've been serving in Afghanistan.

Perhaps the US should look at Canada's example of equality for women in the military and how it can be a success. Denmark, France, Germany, Israel, New Zealand, Poland, Sweden, others have full combat roles for women.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:46 PM   #62
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It could be that I give men more credit than he does.
How dare you?
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:04 PM   #63
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I think you may have even lost sight of your point. So are you saying women can't be in the army or just can't be SEALs? Seriously, you are all over the place.
I've never said they couldn't be in the Army - just Combat Arms. The examples I gave were on the extreme end to prove a point - however, basic Infantry training/combat would still be nearly impossible for women if the same standards were applied. And any combat mission could end up being as harsh as the examples I gave. In battle, you don't always get to pick and choose the situations.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:11 PM   #64
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And any combat mission could end up being as harsh as the examples I gave. In battle, you don't always get to pick and choose the situations.
But this is where you slip, you said most men couldn't even do it, so why is this even a factor?

I really don't think you've proved any point as to why women cannot be in "normal" combat scenarios.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:15 PM   #65
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Women successfully serve with men in combat roles on the front lines in the Canadian military. While serving in Afghanistan 2006 Captain Nichola Goddard(Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) became the first combat-deployed Canadian female to die in combat. Canadian men and women make up the highest per capita casualties out of all Allied nations in the 8 years they've been serving in Afghanistan.

Perhaps the US should look at Canada's example of equality for women in the military and how it can be a success. Denmark, France, Germany, Israel, New Zealand, Poland, Sweden, others have full combat roles for women.
From what I've been reading - Israel no longer puts women in direct combat situations. The last time was 1948. The few women that are in what we would consider "Infantry" units - are stationed on the relatively peaceful border with Egypt.

Again, please do not confuse women in the military (which I support) with women in the Infantry (which I oppose).
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:06 PM   #66
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Women successfully serve with men in combat roles on the front lines in the Canadian military. While serving in Afghanistan 2006 Captain Nichola Goddard(Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) became the first combat-deployed Canadian female to die in combat. Canadian men and women make up the highest per capita casualties out of all Allied nations in the 8 years they've been serving in Afghanistan.

Perhaps the US should look at Canada's example of equality for women in the military and how it can be a success. Denmark, France, Germany, Israel, New Zealand, Poland, Sweden, others have full combat roles for women.
You're forgetting two very important things. First, why bring up Canada at all? It's as irrelevant a nation as exists on Earth, so if it works here, that doesn't really matter. Canada is inferior to everyone else.

Secondly, maybe she wouldn't have died if she were a man? Just sayin'.
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:28 PM   #67
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K, I've read all five pages and I still don't get it....either *a person* (man, woman, both, neither...) cuts it, or he/she/it doesn't. I don't see why there have to be rules, unwritten or otherwise, pertaining to sex (or sexual orientation, or religion....). I personally cannot perform the physical tasks necessary to be in the line of work AEON is describing, so I'm not planning on enlisting. I've thought about going to EMT school but I doubt I have the physical abilities right now to do that work either. I currently work with all men in a field dominated by men but have never ever felt out of place or been made to feel out of place by my male co-workers and superiors. Likewise I spent much of my recreational time pursuing a hobby also dominated by men and have never felt out of place there either. Maybe I'm just lucky and all my male co-workers and friends have more class than some of the posts in this thread but somehow I don't think so, I hang out with some pretty crude guys! It always amuses me how the men seem to get so much more defensive and jump on topics like this like flies on a shit....
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:19 PM   #68
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AEON,

This last round in Iraq, I saw time and time again women completely capable of pulling any duty. Yeah, it's more rare to see them capable of say a high physical endurance mission, but there are plenty out there that would kick your ass all the way back to the wire.

All that bullshit about sex and cohesion leads me to think you haven't spent much time in a coed unit. You've got some growing up to do.

And next time you're wondering if a female can do "combat arms", remember all the women ass kickers in the CIA who are living on the edge of the edge.

Just a matter of time before they are fully integrated. I look forward to the day.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:25 PM   #69
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:52 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by MadelynIris View Post

...it's more rare to see them capable of say a high physical endurance mission...
Not a small point in this discussion.

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All that bullshit about sex and cohesion leads me to think you haven't spent much time in a coed unit.
Only in Officer Candidate School. And yes, it was a problem.

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You've got some growing up to do.
No offense - but is that what you say to everyone that disagrees with you? Can someone have a contrary opinion without being called a nitwit or child? I'm 39, I have a BS degree in MIS and a BS in English Literature as well as an MBA in International Finance - and quite a bit of graduate level seminary (working on Mdiv and hopefully a PhD). I've been an enlisted grunt and an officer. I worked for dotcoms, two Fortune 500 companies and a well established biotech company. I've been to every continent except Antarctica. I've also served as an associate pastor at my church. My point is - I'm not some fresh kid who hasn't seen "the world"


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Just a matter of time before they are fully integrated.
You are probably right.
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:35 AM   #71
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Only in Officer Candidate School. And yes, it was a problem.
For you?

Girls are just too tempting, so ban them all!! Sorry but your education and work experience fail to qualify the validity of this sort of argument. IMO it is downright childish...
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:58 AM   #72
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I know this may be a bit different, but back in the day our our Troubles - tail end come early 90s, and RIR used to stand at Courts, and sometimes one female accompanied four males for an hour of manning. only once did I see a female with rifle.

only once on guard. sometimes other times they carried none. debate back then?

When I was young I was told it was to do with females being less strong for frontline/how it was not their role to be possibly 'killed'/they had responsiblity in life of kids, etc.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:11 AM   #73
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Only in Officer Candidate School. And yes, it was a problem.
Your resume is pretty impressive, but to be honest you do come off as someone who needs to grow up a little or you're just too stuck in some old school mysogynist way. Why was it a problem? Was it just you?

Part of the reason you come off this way is that your argument is all over the place, it's physical(though you admit most men couldn't do the example you used), showering together, boys can't keep it in their pants, cohesion, etc... And because you don't have a solid consistent reasoning you come off as someone just trying to cover a sexist one.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:56 AM   #74
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Your resume is pretty impressive, but to be honest you do come off as someone who needs to grow up a little or you're just too stuck in some old school mysogynist way. Why was it a problem? Was it just you?
The problems were candidates getting kicked out for having sex in the washroom, carrying women's rucksacks on long marches, and the obvious double standards in the evaluations between men and women (for example - our "top" candidate was a woman that weighed about 80 lbs, was literally carried on road marches, was frazzled by anything unexpected...etc). I am not saying she needs to be as strong as an Infantry soldier - but minimum standards should be enforced. This soured morale and unit cohesion suffered (one of my points).

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Part of the reason you come off this way is that your argument is all over the place, it's physical(though you admit most men couldn't do the example you used), showering together, boys can't keep it in their pants, cohesion, etc... And because you don't have a solid consistent reasoning you come off as someone just trying to cover a sexist one.
I try to answer the several points as best I can as they come up by various posters. In here, I am more in "reactive" mode so I try to answer or address comments one by one - and this can get me off tangent.

There are two main points I've been trying to make about women in the Infantry or Combat Arms - these are full time positions (not positions that ordinarily don't fight - but find themselves in combat situations). Point 1 - the physical component, and Point 2 - unit cohesion.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:03 AM   #75
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For you?

Sorry but your education and work experience fail to qualify the validity of this sort of argument. IMO it is downright childish...
True, my background does not mean my points are valid. I was simply demonstrating that the points were not being made by a red state hick from a trailer park with a fourth grade education - as some have implied - though indirectly.
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