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Old 10-06-2008, 12:13 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Yes it does have to do with illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants want education and since they get amnesty we have to deal with them. I already posted before my attitudes on the prevention of illegal immigrants and don't want to repeat them.

The reason Palin dodged some questions was because she didn't want liberals from putting words in her mouth and she wanted to use her time to communicate directly to the people without the filter. She even said so.
What's the current policy on illegal immigrants recieving free higher education?

Once again you missed context... Palin has had a history of not answering the question well before she was even "vetted" for the VP slot...


But nice try.
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Old 10-06-2008, 01:47 PM   #107
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Illegal residents but responsible homeowners - Los Angeles Times

Since we're posting articles...

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Home loans held by illegal immigrants in California and across the nation generally have had fewer delinquencies than similar loans held by U.S. citizens...
Makin' us Amuricans look bad...
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Old 10-06-2008, 02:06 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
What's the current policy on illegal immigrants recieving free higher education?

Once again you missed context... Palin has had a history of not answering the question well before she was even "vetted" for the VP slot...


But nice try.
Whatever makes you feel better about your belief system.
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Old 10-06-2008, 02:18 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Whatever makes you feel better about your belief system.
What? This has nothing to do with a "belief system".

I asked you a question. And once again you dodge it.

You keep going on and on how "they" want this and that, but that's not what the article was about. Did you even read your own article?

Then you said: "Illegal immigrants want education and since they get amnesty we have to deal with them." So I ask, what is the current policy? Because I don't think you really know.

If you are going to continue to dodge questions, or rant on and on off topic, there's no use continuing this discussion. And I will once again excuse myself from another one of your pointless non-discussions.
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:23 PM   #110
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A koolaid post if ever I've seen one.

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The reason Palin dodged some questions was because she didn't want liberals from putting words in her mouth and she wanted to use her time to communicate directly to the people without the filter. She even said so.
Why would you be afraid of someone putting words in your mouth if you had good, logically sound and intelligently articulated answers to questions?

Oh, wait.
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:51 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
What? This has nothing to do with a "belief system".

I asked you a question. And once again you dodge it.

You keep going on and on how "they" want this and that, but that's not what the article was about. Did you even read your own article?

Then you said: "Illegal immigrants want education and since they get amnesty we have to deal with them." So I ask, what is the current policy? Because I don't think you really know.

If you are going to continue to dodge questions, or rant on and on off topic, there's no use continuing this discussion. And I will once again excuse myself from another one of your pointless non-discussions.
The current policy is to put up some fences, detain, and then deport those who they catch. Many don't get caught and end up staying for years and volunteer to move back if they feel they are about to get caught. If they find a job they are more likely to be able to avoid deportation and try to become a citizen. The ones who stay on the average have lower education than the rest of the population. (This is what I was addressing). People who have trouble getting a job and who live on welfare can drain taxpayers and are also not educated well. My point is to jump from the typical immigration debate about prevention (which is impossible to eliminate 100%) and talk about actual solutions that the immigrants themselves can pursue. The future policy under McCain or Obama is a form of amnesty that will allow many illegal immigrants a chance to become citizens after entering the country illegally.

What we want is to have people who are capable of getting some more education to fill out jobs better. The U.S. and the rest of the west is relying more on higher education related jobs so coming in and not knowing English and not having skills and then eventually becoming American citizens and complaining about school performance is too slow a process. It's faster for those people to focus on their language skills and to take courses that fullfill job requirements. Once they have a job and are paying taxes then they are like many legal immigrants. The biggest problem is having a section of the population that is uneducated and don't want to learn another language. Unless we have a mass deportation there has to be other solutions rather just prevention.

Mass deportation is not going to happen with any administration in this day and age, due to cost and negative opinions about it. Many have jobs and are contributing to the economy. All we can do is tighten the border and deport those we catch. Mexico also has it's own responsibilities. There is a reason people are coming to the U.S. Mexico has bad economics, corruption, and high crime rates. If I was Mexican I would realize that the government is going to give crumbs when it comes to welfare programs compared to me getting active, improving myself and getting a job. People keep abstractly looking to the government for solutions when they themselves have a better option. We have people who legally immigrate to Canada who complain that a great job was not given to them as if everything is an entitlement. You have to struggle like everyone else.

The only other thing I can think of is to have a look at what might be inefficient in the current process. Certainly in Canada we have lots of immigrants complaining that it takes too long to become a Canadian citizen. Maybe we should look into having professional designations teaming up with similar designations in other countries to streamline people from different standards to our standards to improve legal immigration so the temptation for illegal immigration is lessened.

Now I would like to know your opinion on the subject or do you want to just talk about Sarah Palin?
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:55 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Why would you be afraid of someone putting words in your mouth if you had good, logically sound and intelligently articulated answers to questions?

Oh, wait.
Conservatives don't think that Biden was logical or intelligent in his debate, but that is a different thread.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:34 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The current policy is to put up some fences, detain, and then deport those who they catch.
I understand that. But I was trying to get you to tell me what you thought was the current policy of education regarding illegal immigrants because you seemed to be very confused.

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The ones who stay on the average have lower education than the rest of the population. (This is what I was addressing).
That may have been what you were trying to address, but that's not what the article was addressing that's why I was so confused.

Here's where you start ignoring far too many factors and make blanket black and white generalizations. That's not going to get you very far. How are you differenciating between those that came here legally vs illegally, those that have been here all their lives vs those that have only been here a few years, or those that are poor vs middle class? You just say "the ones who stay on average have lower education than the rest of the population". Without the breakdown of these factors there's no way to figure out what the problem is...

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
People who have trouble getting a job and who live on welfare can drain taxpayers and are also not educated well.
Well this is a blanket statement about welfare, very little to do with illegal immigration, in fact almost nothing to do with illegal immigration. But ask yourself this; which came first are they on welfare because they weren't educated well, or they weren't educated well because they were on welfare?

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The U.S. and the rest of the west is relying more on higher education related jobs so coming in and not knowing English and not having skills and then eventually becoming American citizens and complaining about school performance is too slow a process.
Who is doing this? Who is coming over here to go to school and refusing to learn english then complaining about their school performance, please show me.

I agree that not learning English will hinder your ability to get very far, but why do you keep bringing this up?

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
There is a reason people are coming to the U.S. Mexico has bad economics, corruption, and high crime rates. If I was Mexican I would realize that the government is going to give crumbs when it comes to welfare programs compared to me getting active, improving myself and getting a job. People keep abstractly looking to the government for solutions when they themselves have a better option. We have people who legally immigrate to Canada who complain that a great job was not given to them as if everything is an entitlement. You have to struggle like everyone else.
Once again, what are you talking about?

I agree there is a reason many are immigrating here, that's why I don't blame them. But you make it sound like everyone who immigrates want to be on welfare...

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
The only other thing I can think of is to have a look at what might be inefficient in the current process. Certainly in Canada we have lots of immigrants complaining that it takes too long to become a Canadian citizen. Maybe we should look into having professional designations teaming up with similar designations in other countries to streamline people from different standards to our standards to improve legal immigration so the temptation for illegal immigration is lessened.
Yes the process is often far too long and can be pretty pricey. When desperate time and money is usually something you don't have, that's why so many will work the jobs you would never even think about working. I do think work programs for citizenship would be a great place to start.
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Old 10-06-2008, 07:19 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
I understand that. But I was trying to get you to tell me what you thought was the current policy of education regarding illegal immigrants because you seemed to be very confused.
The current process is going into some form of amnesty based on what the Obama and McCain want so that's what I expect. I'm pretty sure they want to seal the border as much as possible without destroying trade and they want to grant amnesty to those who are here and already working. I'm for this because a mass deportation doesn't seem feasible especially for those who are working and contributing to the economy. So I agree with much of what Bush wanted that's why there is nothing to really defend since it will likely be implemented in the next four years.

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That may have been what you were trying to address, but that's not what the article was addressing that's why I was so confused.
The article goes into education and how many immigrants aren't really performing and then goes into the diversity functions that have more to do with coddling and a separate set of education standards that are below the general standards everyone else is exposed to. When you have people stick together simply because of custom and ethnicity you limit yourself by not meeting more people and mesuring yourself to a higher standard.

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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Here's where you start ignoring far too many factors and make blanket black and white generalizations. That's not going to get you very far. How are you differenciating between those that came here legally vs illegally, those that have been here all their lives vs those that have only been here a few years, or those that are poor vs middle class? You just say "the ones who stay on average have lower education than the rest of the population". Without the breakdown of these factors there's no way to figure out what the problem is...
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Well this is a blanket statement about welfare, very little to do with illegal immigration, in fact almost nothing to do with illegal immigration. But ask yourself this; which came first are they on welfare because they weren't educated well, or they weren't educated well because they were on welfare?
Those who come legally usually have some grasp of English and have a career in mind. Those who come illegally just want to get out of situation they are in whether it's Mexico or another country. Once people get in they tend to rely on social programs because of a language barrier and a lack of skills. I know in Canada many of the legal immigrants rely on social programs here when they get in so there is a net cost overall for immigration.


[QUOTE=BonoVoxSupastar;5516899]Who is doing this? Who is coming over here to go to school and refusing to learn english then complaining about their school performance, please show me.

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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
I agree that not learning English will hinder your ability to get very far, but why do you keep bringing this up?
I bring this up because I'm the type to look at what the individual can do and not necessarily what government policies can do.

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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Once again, what are you talking about?

I agree there is a reason many are immigrating here, that's why I don't blame them. But you make it sound like everyone who immigrates want to be on welfare...
If that's how it looks then maybe it's my typing. This older study is better than I:

Center for Immigration Studies

It basically says there are two choices. Increase enforcement, especially for tourists that want to stay much longer, or some form of amnesty which wouldn't be enough in tax revenue to cover the costs completely. At that point the welfare programs should be geared towards rewarding effort to get educated and work. Those benefits will likely be related to time intervals where people have to get it together or go home.

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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Yes the process is often far too long and can be pretty pricey. When desperate time and money is usually something you don't have, that's why so many will work the jobs you would never even think about working. I do think work programs for citizenship would be a great place to start.
Yes I agree a work for citizenship would help, but I would also add a welfare plan that is contingent on getting some basic skills tailored to the demands in the economy. If we are going to spend money on people it should direct them towards earning an income with deadlines that lead to deportation. There has to be some cutoff so people just don't sit on a free ride. There has to be some incentive to get people to work. Once immigrants get used to low paying labor they will want better pay for sure. This means education. Like that article I posted before, that will only happen when the individual starts cracking the books.

Of course I could be wrong, and if someone can figure out a better way of improving methods for bringing in legal immigrants without amnesty there could be a fairer policy that could be applied. This I don't know as of yet. Certainly in Canada we are not getting a net benefit from legals or illegals. Americans will have to decide because the deficit is so bad that they will eventually have to raise taxes since not every political spending promise can be allowed under the current tax regime.

The biggest problem with social programs is the free ride tendency that exists in any western society with progressive programs. The only success I saw was Contract with America which had limits for welfare.
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:04 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post

The article goes into education and how many immigrants aren't really performing and then goes into the diversity functions that have more to do with coddling and a separate set of education standards that are below the general standards everyone else is exposed to. When you have people stick together simply because of custom and ethnicity you limit yourself by not meeting more people and mesuring yourself to a higher standard.
NO, that's not what the article says at all!!! Either you never read the article or you didn't understand it.

The article talks about hispanics. It doesn't break it down as to if they are immigrants legal or illegal, it just says hispanics. Unless you are suggesting that all hispanics should be considered immigrants and only white people are non immigrants?

It also doesn't speak about separate sets of educational standards. These were all extracurricular college clubs that the author suggested getting rid of... And the author poorly showed the correlation. It was a shit article that just reaked of racism.




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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Those who come legally usually have some grasp of English and have a career in mind. Those who come illegally just want to get out of situation they are in whether it's Mexico or another country. Once people get in they tend to rely on social programs because of a language barrier and a lack of skills. I know in Canada many of the legal immigrants rely on social programs here when they get in so there is a net cost overall for immigration.
Once again, what are you basing this on? It just sounds like a bunch of poor speculation.

How are illegals relying on social programs? The majority of social programs do not apply to illegals...

Lack of skills? Do you know how many immigrants are working labor jobs in construction, landscaping, agriculture, and sanitation?
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:22 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
NO, that's not what the article says at all!!! Either you never read the article or you didn't understand it.

The article talks about hispanics. It doesn't break it down as to if they are immigrants legal or illegal, it just says hispanics. Unless you are suggesting that all hispanics should be considered immigrants and only white people are non immigrants?

It also doesn't speak about separate sets of educational standards. These were all extracurricular college clubs that the author suggested getting rid of... And the author poorly showed the correlation. It was a shit article that just reaked of racism.

Once again, what are you basing this on? It just sounds like a bunch of poor speculation.

How are illegals relying on social programs? The majority of social programs do not apply to illegals...

Lack of skills? Do you know how many immigrants are working labor jobs in construction, landscaping, agriculture, and sanitation?
Well we agree to disagree on the racism part. The people who are illegal OBVIOUSLY will do better because they speak more English and made a plan to enter another country. Even my Dad could speak enough English enough to cope before he came. People who are illegal do get food stamps, health care, and welfare payments. The U.S. doesn't starve them to death. See the said quote on my last link.

"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household. "

And if you think that what I am writing is speculation, then you are right. Everybody is speculating on this board. It's a U2 music board. The amount of information you ask from people would require me to go and leave my office and become an economist and work in government to answer your critique in full.

Most countries have statistics of those using social programs and they compare them to the tax revenue. If there is a net cost then there are social programs being used for sure. Even Arnold in California was bemoaning the cost. Read the other article I posted "Center for Immigration Studies". It goes into more detail. If you don't like the article then I don't know what other internet source I can readily find in quick fashion. I actually have a life. If I can find it quickly, cut and paste it on this board it will take too much time. I'm sure other people here would agree.

Why don't you do some work for a change? Help me out! If I'm so woeful a writer then enlighten me. Show me the split of illegals and legals and how illegals don't get social programs at all. How can there be a net cost from applying amnesty to illegals if they don't get social programs?
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:48 PM   #117
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Well we agree to disagree on the racism part. The people who are illegal OBVIOUSLY will do better because they speak more English and made a plan to enter another country. Even my Dad could speak enough English enough to cope before he came.
I agree that English would help you tremendously, we agree on that. But next time you should read the articles you post.

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People who are illegal do get food stamps, health care, and welfare payments. The U.S. doesn't starve them to death. See the said quote on my last link.
Yes there are ways around the system, but no, the programs do not give to illegals outright.


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"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household. "
Yes but how can you factor how much they saved? How much more would construction, food costs, etc go up if the labor force was paid minimum wage?

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
And if you think that what I am writing is speculation, then you are right. Everybody is speculating on this board. It's a U2 music board. The amount of information you ask from people would require me to go and leave my office and become an economist and work in government to answer your critique in full.
There's a difference between pure speculation and having a little knowledge. I know for sure that the majority of illegals are employed, I know this because I've seen the numbers from BOTH sides of the immigration issue.


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Why don't you do some work for a change? Help me out! If I'm so woeful a writer then enlighten me. Show me the split of illegals and legals and how illegals don't get social programs at all. How can there be a net cost from applying amnesty to illegals if they don't get social programs?
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:54 PM   #118
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Would both of you stop calling people illegal? People are not legal or illegal. Their status as immigrants may be legal or illegal, but not their status as humans.
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:25 PM   #119
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Would both of you stop calling people illegal? People are not legal or illegal. Their status as immigrants may be legal or illegal, but not their status as humans.
True. I was being lazy and speaking in the language of the poster... and I shouldn't have.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:12 AM   #120
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Thank you.
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