Speed Cameras. Coming soon to your town?

[BVS]

What part of still issuing speeding tickets equating not slowing anyone down don't you get?

Wow, you're especially thick today...

If they are issuing 100 less tickets per year than some are slowing down, no? They are still issuing tickets, just less.

Now if you can prove they are not issuing less than the years before(that were being monitored by camera) then you have a point, but you haven't done that. You just have this all or nothing failed logic.

 

[BVS]

isnt that what i said?

Was I arguing with you?

 

[financeguy]

What part of still issuing speeding tickets equating not slowing anyone down don't you get? They put cameras up all over the UK to "prevent" crime, now when you get stabbed there is a good chance they'll catch the guy a day sooner.

Well, the UK is probably the most spied upon nation on earth. Of course, when government first introduced automatic speed cameras in the early 1990's, they reassured people that they would only be used on a very limited basis and would not be expanded. Lo and behold, twenty years later and speed cameras and CCTV's are everywhere. In other words, exactly the kinds of thing that civil libertarians predicted would happen, have happened.

If BVS likes this idea so much, maybe he should go and live there.

 

[bigjohn2441]

Was I arguing with you?

most likely

i dont know if the 2 states being connected has anything to do with them being #1 and #2.

 

[bigjohn2441]

Well, the UK is probably the most spied upon nation on earth. Of course, when government first introduced automatic speed cameras in the early 1990's, they reassured people that they would only be used on a very limited basis and would not be expanded. Lo and behold, twenty years later and speed cameras and CCTV's are everywhere. In other words, exactly the kinds of thing that civil libertarians predicted would happen, have happened.

yes, and i hope that type of thing doesnt happen here, but it's starting to look that way.

If BVS likes this idea so much, maybe he should go and live there.

 

[BVS]

If BVS likes this idea so much, maybe he should go and live there.

Yes, because that's exactly what I've said...

but nice try.

 

[financeguy]

Well, let's help him out:

Flights to London from Texas

 

[VintagePunk]

This only works to increase safety if there is evidence that it functions as a deterrent and if there is evidence that accidents on the roads where they are installed are caused at least in part by speeding.

I think the red light cameras do function as a deterrent insofar as I know that I personally won't risk running a yellow if I could end up with a ticket for $85 or whatever it is. As for the speed cameras, I'm not sure what the statistics are.

Do you remember when we had photo radar on the 401 in '93 - '94?

For you non-Canadians, the 401 is the busiest highway/freeway in the North America, and one of the busiest in the world. There are also long portions of it that have a lot of accidents, with one stretch in particular being called "Carnage Alley."

I don't know the stats either, and a cursory check on google didn't reveal any, but I do know that many of the drivers on it are NUTS, driving well over 150 kph/90 mph (the speed limit is 100 kph/60 mph, but no one drives at that speed on it, it's more like 120 kph is the bare minimum, if you drive any lower than that, you'll get run over), tailgating, driving aggressively, whizzing in and out of lanes unsafely. I just know that when photo radar was in use, driving on it felt much safer than it does now.

It was brought into effect by a provincial NDP government, and removed by the subsequent Conservative government. I remember people at the time bitching that it was a cash grab by the government, which, no doubt it was, but if it resulted in safer driving with more people staying closer to the speed limit, what does it matter?

I just read on a website that it didn't kick in till cars went over 120, but I found nothing official to substantiate that.

For the record, I speed quite a bit too, in the city and on non-400 series highways. Although, like bigjohn said, I only speed when it's safe to do so (good traffic and weather conditions, safe stretches of road, etc), but even I've cut back on speeding in the past few years - can't afford my insurance rates to go up.

In the past few years, they've talked about reinstating photo radar on the 401. I kinda hope they do.

 

[BoMac]

Helps revenue. You can get the fines without paying a cop. Doesn't slow anyone down, but it's nice to think so.

It slows me down.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I sure wish there were cameras on my street, where yesterday cars just kept going when a school bus was stopped to drop off kids. The bus driver leaned on the horn-it could have been a tragedy. This happened to an even younger kid years back, I will never forget the sound of the screeching brakes (he made it across the street, I don't know how). It's on a town line and people just drive recklessly with no regard for having to possibly stop for a school bus. A slow children/bus sign would sure help-but I'd love to see their plates on tape and see them slapped with a huge fine, or worse.

 

[VintagePunk]

I sure wish there were cameras on my street, where yesterday cars just kept going when a school bus was stopped to drop off kids. The bus driver leaned on the horn-it could have been a tragedy. This happened to an even younger kid years back, I will never forget the sound of the screeching brakes (he made it across the street, I don't know how). It's on a town line and people just drive recklessly with no regard for having to possibly stop for a school bus. A slow children/bus sign would sure help-but I'd love to see their plates on tape and see them slapped with a huge fine, or worse.

Wow, that's a really serious offence here in Ontario:

Drivers - always stop for the bus

Whether on a city street, highway or county road, and regardless of the speed limit and the number of lanes, motorists travelling in both directions must stop when approaching a stopped school bus with its upper red lights flashing. A flashing stop arm will swing out while passengers are boarding or leaving the bus. (The only exception: on highways separated by a median, traffic coming from the opposite direction is not required to stop). Once all passengers have boarded, the STOP arm will fold away. Do not start moving until the red lights have stopped flashing and the bus begins to move.
PENALTIES FOR NOT STOPPING

First offence: $400 to $2,000 and six demerit points
Each subsequent offence: $1,000 to $4,000, six demerit points and possible jail time up to six months

And I'm pretty sure the bus driver has the right to take down your license number and report you.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

This is the law where I live-but some people just don't care. It's one of the things that really makes me angry.

First offense shall be punished by a fine of not less than $250; and for a second offense by a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $1,000; and for a third or subsequent offense by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $2,000."

"A second conviction or third or subsequent conviction as set forth in the preceding sentence shall be reported forthwith by the court or magistrate to the registrar who shall revoke immediately the license or right to operate of the person so convicted and no appeal, motion for a new trial or exceptions, shall operate to stay the revocation of the license or right to operate; provided, however, that no license or right to operate shall be issued by the registrar to any person convicted of a second such offense until 6 months after the date of revocation following said conviction or to any person convicted of a third or subsequent such offense until 1 year after the date of revocation following said conviction; and provided, further, that if the prosecution against such person has terminated in his favor the registrar shall forthwith reinstate his license or right to operate."

 

[Jive Turkey]

Heres my problem with speed cameras. I think fines should be as much a deterrent as they are a punishment. If you're caught speeding by a police officer and are given a ticket, you have essentially been stopped in the act of speeding and, more often than not, will probably obey the speed limits at least until you get to your destination. I know from personal experience, if i get nailed, I'm extra cautious for the next week or so (I try not to speed regardless, but sometimes, I admit, I go a little faster than the posted limit). If someone gets caught speeding by a camera, they havent been pulled over and will continue on their merry way, oblivious to the ticket thats on the way. Theres still the potential for that person to hit another car or pedestrian. People are going to speed regardless of tickets. They have been for decades. I really doubt that having cameras installed will prevent this. It just seems like a cash grab if you ask me. Ontario already had photo radar for some time and have done away with it for that reason

 

[VintagePunk]

Heres my problem with speed cameras. I think fines should be as much a deterrent as they are a punishment. If you're caught speeding by a police officer and are given a ticket, you have essentially been stopped in the act of speeding and, more often than not, will probably obey the speed limits at least until you get to your destination. I know from personal experience, if i get nailed, I'm extra cautious for the next week or so (I try not to speed regardless, but sometimes, I admit, I go a little faster than the posted limit). If someone gets caught speeding by a camera, you havent been pulled over and will continue on your merry way, oblivious to the ticket thats on your way. Theres still the potential for that person to hit another car or pedestrian. People are going to speed regardless of tickets. They have been for decades. I really doubt that having cameras installed will prevent this. It just seems like a cash grab if you ask me. Ontario already had photo radar for some time and have done away with it for that reason

But, police can only catch and ticket a very limited amount of speeders. If you're driving down a particular road (e.g. the 401) and know that you're going to be caught every time, and then the fines and demerit points start to add up, your insurance rates increase, aren't you eventually going to start to slow down?

It was ended here on the 401 purely due to political reasons.

 

[anitram]

Do you remember when we had photo radar on the 401 in '93 - '94?

For you non-Canadians, the 401 is the busiest highway/freeway in the North America, and one of the busiest in the world. There are also long portions of it that have a lot of accidents, with one stretch in particular being called "Carnage Alley."

I don't know the stats either, and a cursory check on google didn't reveal any, but I do know that many of the drivers on it are NUTS, driving well over 150 kph/90 mph (the speed limit is 100 kph/60 mph, but no one drives at that speed on it, it's more like 120 kph is the bare minimum, if you drive any lower than that, you'll get run over), tailgating, driving aggressively, whizzing in and out of lanes unsafely. I just know that when photo radar was in use, driving on it felt much safer than it does now.

I was only 14-15 at that time and wasn't driving yet, so I only remember really hearing about it.

I drove down "Carnage Alley" dozens upon dozens of times because I went to law school in London for 3 years, so I'm very familiar with that stretch of 401. The thing is, it's such free flowing traffic most of the time that it's hard not to speed.

We now have the new stunt driving/street racing laws that kick in at over 150km/hr. Immediate roadside suspension and vehicle seizure, and a fine of up to $10K plus possible jail time. The Crowns (Cdn version of the DAs) have been explicitly instructed that they are not to plead out or plead down any of these offenders and as far as I can tell, they are nabbing people left, right and center. I know of at least two guys who have been charged under this law.

 

[Diemen]

Wow, you're especially thick today...

Come on, BVS.

 

[Jive Turkey]

But, police can only catch and ticket a very limited amount of speeders. If you're driving down a particular road (e.g. the 401) and know that you're going to be caught every time, and then the fines and demerit points start to add up, your insurance rates increase, aren't you eventually going to start to slow down?

It was ended here on the 401 purely due to political reasons.

I suppose if its in the same spot all the time it would slow people down in that stretch of highway, but what about in the areas where people know there arent cameras? the ontario photo radar program was all in mobile vans and if i remember right and there were only a limited number of them. So I dont know if they would be any more of a deterrent than knowing that police are also patrolling the same highways. Also, and this is somewhat irrelevant, but didnt radiostations at the time start announcing photo radar van sitings? As I recall, the vans were quite conspicuous

 

[VintagePunk]

I was only 14-15 at that time and wasn't driving yet, so I only remember really hearing about it.

I drove down "Carnage Alley" dozens upon dozens of times because I went to law school in London for 3 years, so I'm very familiar with that stretch of 401. The thing is, it's such free flowing traffic most of the time that it's hard not to speed.

Yeah, that's what I meant when I said you pretty much can't drive under 120 on the 401 - doing so is risking an accident. 120 is fine with good road conditions, safe distances between vehicles and without idiots cutting in and out of lanes for no apparent reason, but unfortunately all of those conditions are rarely met. And, I'm sure you know that even driving at 120 - 130, there are tons of cars whizzing past at much greater speeds.

I had to drive to London at 7 am the other day with a back seat full of meowing cats, having had very little sleep the night before. I didn't even attempt the 401 with those potential distractions, I took hwy 2. Took 20 minutes longer, but I got there in one piece.

I suppose if its in the same spot all the time it would slow people down in that stretch of highway, but what about in the areas where people know there arent cameras? the ontario photo radar program was all in mobile vans and if i remember right and there were only a limited number of them. So I dont know if they would be any more of a deterrent than knowing that police are also patrolling the same highways. Also, and this is somewhat irrelevant, but didnt radiostations at the time start announcing photo radar van sitings? As I recall, the vans were quite conspicuous

I honestly don't remember many of the details. I'm in Brantford, and the extent of my 401 to Toronto driving during that time was going to TO for Jays' games or concerts. I do remember it being this huge controversy in the media, though. If the vans were moved to random spots each day, or even throughout the day, I'm sure that people would eventually get used to the idea that they have to slow down on that road, period. If they do ever bring it back, radio stations should be fined for reporting exact locations.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Between 120 and 150 (~75 to 90mph) is a nice travelling speed. But you need to be used to it. I think in Canada it's not forbidden to overtake on the inside, right?

 

[BVS]

Come on, BVS.

What now?

Was he not being stubborn?

 

[Jive Turkey]

If the vans were moved to random spots each day, or even throughout the day, I'm sure that people would eventually get used to the idea that they have to slow down on that road, period.

Thats kinda the thing though. Why cant it be a police speed trap that moves to random spots? I think the idea that there are going to be radars of any kind, camera or police, on the highways would at least make some people think twice about speeding. But the benefit of a police officer is that he will pull over the jackass thats traveling at 180 kph and prevent him from hurting anybody.

I had to drive to London at 7 am the other day with a back seat full of meowing cats...

this made me laugh

 

[VintagePunk]

Thats kinda the thing though. Why cant it be a police speed trap that moves to random spots? I think the idea that there are going to be radars of any kind, camera or police, on the highways would at least make some people think twice about speeding. But the benefit of a police officer is that he will pull over the jackass thats traveling at 180 kph and prevent him from hurting anybody.



this made me laugh

Oh, it can be that, and I agree, for immediate safety, having police or the MTO out there is the much safer option. But realistically, given the immense volumes of traffic on those roads daily, the odds that they're going to get any individual speeder, even the ones going over the 150 kph mark, is very slim. I just think that as an additional deterrent, photo radar is a decent option for bringing speeds down to a much safer level.

I'd really like to find some stats re: tickets issued or accidents during the period it was in effect.

Yes, it was pretty funny. Me bleary eyed, mainlining coffee, saying "we're almost there, kitties!" lol

 

[DrTeeth]

Where I was growing up, the road in front of our house certainly could have done with a couple of speed cameras.

 

[cydewaze]

Around here we have speed cameras popping up everywhere, and they're creating quite a few unforeseen side-effects.

First off, when traffic is light, people slow down for the 5' section the camera watches, then floor it once past it. Also, in some places (our town included) people have started cutting through neighborhoods to bypass the cameras. When they do this, they usually roll stop signs and they rarely observe the 25mph limits. Now they've started speed bumping the neighborhoods (yet another expense) but of course those slow down the emergency vehicles.

In heavy traffic, the traffic cams snarl the roads, because when people hit the brakes for the cam (and they do whether they're speeding or not), it creates an accordion down through the line of traffic. This makes a previously smooth-running road turn into a stop-and-go mess, which increases pollution and fuel consumption. It also causes a fair amount of rear-end collisions, but of course those don't go into the accident reports because they're not considered "speed-related". Just about every favorable report on these things has had the numbers cooked.

Finally, there's the thing about how the cameras are paid for. Right now, our county has a contract to pay the camera maker $142,000 per month for just one set of cameras. And our county is blanketed in the things. This begs the question, what happens if everyone slows down and no more tickets are given? Who pays the bill?

There are just so many things wrong with these things that I'm amazed they were ever able to sleaze them through.

Sometimes working for the Department of Transportation is cool, and sometimes I think there are some things I'd be better off not knowing.

 

[phillyfan26]

People who think speed cameras are a good idea probably have never driven in the Northeastern US on a regular basis.

I'm not saying it's right, but there's no possible way to implement this in a successful way around here. I speed every day. Every single day. I don't know a person who doesn't.

 

[phillyfan26]

In heavy traffic, the traffic cams snarl the roads, because when people hit the brakes for the cam (and they do whether they're speeding or not), it creates an accordion down through the line of traffic. This makes a previously smooth-running road turn into a stop-and-go mess, which increases pollution and fuel consumption. It also causes a fair amount of rear-end collisions, but of course those don't go into the accident reports because they're not considered "speed-related". Just about every favorable report on these things has had the numbers cooked.

Bingo. Those cameras are posted on the lights, and when I'm coming up to a yellow, I have no idea what to do. Do I keep going and risk getting tagged for doing the safer thing, or do I avoid the camera by slamming on the breaks and risking getting rear-ended?

 

[cydewaze]

Bingo. Those cameras are posted on the lights, and when I'm coming up to a yellow, I have no idea what to do. Do I keep going and risk getting tagged for doing the safer thing, or do I avoid the camera by slamming on the breaks and risking getting rear-ended?

Actually I was referring to the speed cameras, not the red light cameras.

The red light cameras don't bother me as much, although they probably should, since they're easier to commit fraud with.

Then again, you could also use speed cameras to get back at your enemies. With automated enforcement, the possibilities are almost limitless.

 

[indra]

yeah, but the problem is there is another one waiting a mile down the road

That is so true! Whenever I see a cop on the freeway I know there's at least one more within the next couple of miles.

(Ohio resident here )

 

[cobl04]

Come to Australia they just sit on the sides of the road eating donuts with a speed camera in tow.

I'm up for about $500 in fines, once was 54ks in a 50 zone, then 70 in a 5 zone four minutes later, and now 105 in a 100 zone, which is just bloody annoying. Everyone speeds on the freeway

 

[indra]

54ks in a 50 zone

They nail you for that little over? I'd be toast!

Usually here you're ok if you are within 5-10 mph over on highways and within 5 mph over everywhere else (except maybe in school zones). I suppose with the cameras though maybe that cushion would disappear.